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Also just today: BBC headline "Ex-UK pilots lured to help Chinese military, MoD says" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63293582 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-6329358

Also just today: BBC headline "Ex-UK pilots lured to help Chinese military, MoD says" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63293582 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63293582 With more background info: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-china-really-using-ex-uk-military-pilots-for-tactics-insights-sure-seems-like-it https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-china-really-using-... Some highlights from the BBC article: > Former British military pilots are being lured to China with large sums of money to pass on their expertise to the Chinese military, it is claimed. > Up to 30 former UK military pilots are thought to have gone to train members of China's People's Liberation Army. > The retired British pilots are being used to help understand the way in which Western planes and pilots operate, information which could be vital in the event of any conflict, such as over Taiwan. > "They are a very attractive body of people to then pass on that knowledge," a Western official said. "It's taking Western pilots of great experience to help develop Chinese military air force tactics and capabilities." The disclaimer sentence > There is no evidence that any pilots have broken the Official Secrets Act or that they have committed any crime. is funny - how would they gather that evidence without confessions from the pilots involved or from the Chinese? Even if they don't tell them any secrets, there remains the fact that they train them at all. With the next big conflict where this might be used being Taiwan, where the West has already taken the opposite side. From the second link: > The MOD also said that the United Kingdom is only one of several Western countries whose aircrew (and likely other sources of military expertise) are currently being targeted in this way. No details were provided of other nations involved. Personally, reading this, I think the news is getting more ridiculous by the day. I think this is much worse, I don't think Saudi Arabia is likely to end up as a direct adversary, and even if it did it would not matter much. But China...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
alexfromapex 4y ago
Saudi Arabia is not as worthy of an adversary as China but they still are a dangerous country to underestimate. They were possibly behind 9/11, after all: https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabia/ https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabi... .
- stytchwhy 4y ago
- rdxm 4y ago
H8crilA 4y ago
Here's a guess: it has been known to various counter-intelligence agencies around the world for a while, but only now someone decided to escalate just a tiny bit and clean up some of the mess. Can't say I don't like it, though I dislike the seemingly ongoing worldwide escalation in international relations.
yakak 4y ago
The US leaking capability to SA is like China leaking capability to NK. When SA runs fully amok the US will be worse off than if it were just in conflict with a single opponent because alliances with garbage bring you into a 2 against 200 position that is almost entirely outside your control.
groffee 4y ago
- rafale 4y ago
  Diversity is incompatible with meritocracy. RAF is gonna pay the price for letting the politics du jour impact their performance based criterias.
  - frereubu 4y ago
    The meaningful point of diversity intiatives is that they find people who are better than others but who would traditionally be overlooked because of their background. Some initiatives are better executed than others, but this comment comes across as a knee-jerk reaction.
    - Wyoming23 4y ago
      No, what you're describing is non-discriminatory hiring. Removing bias and discrimination from hiring is non-controversial across the political spectrum. Diversity initiatives are the opposite. It's explicitly not about who's best, it's about the unrelated goal of a workplace that is racially diverse.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
    Demonstrate the RAF is a perfectly spherical merticocracy operating in a vacuum.
- Redoubts 4y ago
  > the RAF has gone the furthest, setting ambitious targets to more than double its recruitment of women to hit 40% by 2030, as well as to ensure ethnic minorities make up 20% of new recruits. “Stopped recruiting white men“ eh?
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
    Yeah that’s literally how race quotas work. You hire some white men, go “woah too many” and stop hiring them. To make things easier, you do this by avoiding hiring poor whites in particular, while continuing to hire privileged whites who will celebrate your efforts as brave and courageous.
dirtyid 4y ago
>The disclaimer sentence It's a manufacturing consent piece to setup this: >Anyone working in the UK for “hostile” states like Russia and China who fails to register their role will face up to five years in jail, Suella Braverman will announce on Tuesday. [0] https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/hostile-state-workers-must-register-for-us-style-foreign-influence-scheme/ar-AA13557T https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/hostile-state-workers-... With respect to Saudi's, a lot of Saudi of military is serviced/supported by Pakistanis who feeds info directly back to PRC. And TBH it wouldn't surprise me if PRC "lured" ex Japanese / Korean pilots for info as well.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Anyone working in the UK for “hostile” states like Russia and China who fails to register their role will face up to five years in jail, Suella Braverman will announce on Tuesday. This is exactly like Russian 'Foreign Agent' law introduced about 10 years ago. Should we be following in the footsteps of despotic regimes? If we have just declared that these regimes are morrally bankrupt, we should be doing the opposite? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law
  - rawling 4y ago
    I'm sure there are a lot of things Russia does that we shouldn't do the opposite of.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    IMO this was introduced so UK security architecture is more in line with US/AU when it come to PRC as pre-req for getting piece of multibillion AUKUS nuclear sub deal.
adamsmith143 4y ago
>is funny - how would they gather that evidence without confessions from the pilots involved or from the Chinese? MI6 is a thing. What do you think they do all day. You really think these people with classified info in their heads are just walking around blabbing secrets in China or Saudi or wherever?
- nosianu 4y ago
  That would be evidence they won't be able to use in court? It would be giving up on their sources at the least, even if they are not disclosed directly. I have my doubts in them being able to find out exactly which pilot gave the Chinese some specific piece of information. They would need a source that is part of the direct training, which I find a bit optimistic.
  - ectopod 4y ago
    We have secret trials in the UK where the accused doesn't get to hear the evidence. So classified evidence can be used and there is no danger of it leaking. Of course, there is a danger of innocent people being convicted but that doesn't seem to bother MPs or the government or even the public.
kelnos 4y ago
It's weird to me that it's legal for former military members of one country to be employed by another for any military purpose at all, without the express approval of the home country.
- jdhdjdjdhekeie 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

alexfromapex 4y ago

Saudi Arabia is not as worthy of an adversary as China but they still are a dangerous country to underestimate. They were possibly behind 9/11, after all: https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabia/ https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabi... .

stytchwhy 4y ago
rdxm 4y ago

H8crilA 4y ago

Here's a guess: it has been known to various counter-intelligence agencies around the world for a while, but only now someone decided to escalate just a tiny bit and clean up some of the mess. Can't say I don't like it, though I dislike the seemingly ongoing worldwide escalation in international relations.

yakak 4y ago

The US leaking capability to SA is like China leaking capability to NK. When SA runs fully amok the US will be worse off than if it were just in conflict with a single opponent because alliances with garbage bring you into a 2 against 200 position that is almost entirely outside your control.

groffee 4y ago

rafale 4y ago
Diversity is incompatible with meritocracy. RAF is gonna pay the price for letting the politics du jour impact their performance based criterias.
- frereubu 4y ago
  The meaningful point of diversity intiatives is that they find people who are better than others but who would traditionally be overlooked because of their background. Some initiatives are better executed than others, but this comment comes across as a knee-jerk reaction.
  - Wyoming23 4y ago
    No, what you're describing is non-discriminatory hiring. Removing bias and discrimination from hiring is non-controversial across the political spectrum. Diversity initiatives are the opposite. It's explicitly not about who's best, it's about the unrelated goal of a workplace that is racially diverse.
- TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
  Demonstrate the RAF is a perfectly spherical merticocracy operating in a vacuum.
Redoubts 4y ago
> the RAF has gone the furthest, setting ambitious targets to more than double its recruitment of women to hit 40% by 2030, as well as to ensure ethnic minorities make up 20% of new recruits. “Stopped recruiting white men“ eh?
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  Yeah that’s literally how race quotas work. You hire some white men, go “woah too many” and stop hiring them. To make things easier, you do this by avoiding hiring poor whites in particular, while continuing to hire privileged whites who will celebrate your efforts as brave and courageous.

dirtyid 4y ago

>The disclaimer sentence It's a manufacturing consent piece to setup this: >Anyone working in the UK for “hostile” states like Russia and China who fails to register their role will face up to five years in jail, Suella Braverman will announce on Tuesday. [0] https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/hostile-state-workers-must-register-for-us-style-foreign-influence-scheme/ar-AA13557T https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/hostile-state-workers-... With respect to Saudi's, a lot of Saudi of military is serviced/supported by Pakistanis who feeds info directly back to PRC. And TBH it wouldn't surprise me if PRC "lured" ex Japanese / Korean pilots for info as well.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Anyone working in the UK for “hostile” states like Russia and China who fails to register their role will face up to five years in jail, Suella Braverman will announce on Tuesday. This is exactly like Russian 'Foreign Agent' law introduced about 10 years ago. Should we be following in the footsteps of despotic regimes? If we have just declared that these regimes are morrally bankrupt, we should be doing the opposite? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law
- rawling 4y ago
  I'm sure there are a lot of things Russia does that we shouldn't do the opposite of.
- dirtyid 4y ago
  IMO this was introduced so UK security architecture is more in line with US/AU when it come to PRC as pre-req for getting piece of multibillion AUKUS nuclear sub deal.

adamsmith143 4y ago

>is funny - how would they gather that evidence without confessions from the pilots involved or from the Chinese? MI6 is a thing. What do you think they do all day. You really think these people with classified info in their heads are just walking around blabbing secrets in China or Saudi or wherever?

nosianu 4y ago
That would be evidence they won't be able to use in court? It would be giving up on their sources at the least, even if they are not disclosed directly. I have my doubts in them being able to find out exactly which pilot gave the Chinese some specific piece of information. They would need a source that is part of the direct training, which I find a bit optimistic.
- ectopod 4y ago
  We have secret trials in the UK where the accused doesn't get to hear the evidence. So classified evidence can be used and there is no danger of it leaking. Of course, there is a danger of innocent people being convicted but that doesn't seem to bother MPs or the government or even the public.

kelnos 4y ago

It's weird to me that it's legal for former military members of one country to be employed by another for any military purpose at all, without the express approval of the home country.

jdhdjdjdhekeie 4y ago