5 ms·

> The key question that everyone, especially SpaceX, should be asking is why was it even possible to run the test while Cabada was in an unsafe place? absolute

> The key question that everyone, especially SpaceX, should be asking is why was it even possible to run the test while Cabada was in an unsafe place? absolutely. lockout/tagout may seem unnecessary, but it's specifically to avoid exactly these types of situations. Not is it not possible for someone to be in an unsafe place, it's not possible for miscommunications such that it BECOMES unsafe after the fact because that lockout is with a lock no one else can unlock except the person who did it. It obviously requires humans actually DO the procedures, but I think that's part of the point with the question.

Jtsummers 4y ago
> lockout/tagout may seem unnecessary, but it's specifically to avoid exactly these types of situations. Not is it not possible for someone to be in an unsafe place, it's not possible for miscommunications such that it BECOMES unsafe after the fact because that lockout is with a lock no one else can unlock except the person who did it. And despite many comments in this discussion thread asserting that safety reduces progress and speed, lockout/tagout and similar procedures reduce the number of accidents and mishaps. That leads to less downtime spent picking up the body parts or cleaning a corpse out of the equipment. This is one of those "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" things. Get into a good routine with good safety measures and you can get shit done instead of cleaning up shit.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  You don't even need to slow down, in some cases. I was watching a video[0] about how shinkansen trains are serviced each day, and noticed at one point[2] when the workers are ready to clean the top of the train they do a "point and call"[1] routine at a gate. Now, I am not exactly sure what the purpose is for that, because there isn't much context in the video, but I am logically assuming that they are checking that the train's overhead wires are depowered, and the gate probably only allows itself to be opened when that is the case. Even if that's not the exact reason here, I could imagine a test facility where you had occupancy sensors inside and a lockout gate that operated in this fashion, and wouldn't allow a human to be inside the room while pressure was increased in the test valve. I honestly don't get the cowboy attitude in here, we can progress to space quickly AND safely. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieRwRS0VUUM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieRwRS0VUUM [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling [2]: https://youtu.be/ieRwRS0VUUM?t=578 https://youtu.be/ieRwRS0VUUM?t=578
  - lolc 4y ago
    There's a section in the article relating the procedure of spraying the pressurized engine with a liquid to check for bubbles. The bubbles indicate leaks. Humans go close to the engine to check for leaks. They can point and call all they want, it is inherently unsafe for them to be there. It is unclear to me how that procedure could be replaced and I won't dismiss it as cowboy attitude.
    - Jtsummers 4y ago
      It's SpaceX, sister company of Tesla. They can have a small bot that goes around spraying and many cameras and other sensors observing. And given they're looking for potentially very small leaks from a pressurized system you wouldn't want a person physically present when the leak is discovered at high pressure anyways, not unless you want to see the effect of a very narrow high pressure stream hitting human skin (or a fast moving piece of hardware hitting their skull).
      - lolc 4y ago
        I'm sure if the tech were up to the task, they'd have a robot you could walk around with and look at things. But it'd need really good resolution and dynamic range paired with flexible and fine motor control to lean into an engine and look for tiny bubbles. This is a research field of its own. Not something they just have. For example: Humans improve their visual perception by lightly shifting their heads to avoid reflections, gauge shadows and mitigate obstructions. If the tech can't follow, you have an inferior solution. A solution where bubbles will be missed. Just staring at a screen is not the same. Even if you can tilt the camera.
    - andrewaylett 4y ago
      The bubble test is not carried out at full pressure. That's the point: you find the leaks before blowing the engine up because you didn't spot a leak. The tag-out system could, for example, use a pressure relief valve. I suspect they even have one already when running the test, but if someone was in the wrong space when the relief valve wasn't in place then I assume they're not using it as a tag point.
mabbo 4y ago
> lockout/tagout may seem unnecessary, but it's specifically to avoid exactly these types of situations Thank you! I was trying desperately to remember what that system is called but deleted that sentence from my reply because I had forgotten it!

Jtsummers 4y ago

> lockout/tagout may seem unnecessary, but it's specifically to avoid exactly these types of situations. Not is it not possible for someone to be in an unsafe place, it's not possible for miscommunications such that it BECOMES unsafe after the fact because that lockout is with a lock no one else can unlock except the person who did it. And despite many comments in this discussion thread asserting that safety reduces progress and speed, lockout/tagout and similar procedures reduce the number of accidents and mishaps. That leads to less downtime spent picking up the body parts or cleaning a corpse out of the equipment. This is one of those "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" things. Get into a good routine with good safety measures and you can get shit done instead of cleaning up shit.

ok_dad 4y ago
You don't even need to slow down, in some cases. I was watching a video[0] about how shinkansen trains are serviced each day, and noticed at one point[2] when the workers are ready to clean the top of the train they do a "point and call"[1] routine at a gate. Now, I am not exactly sure what the purpose is for that, because there isn't much context in the video, but I am logically assuming that they are checking that the train's overhead wires are depowered, and the gate probably only allows itself to be opened when that is the case. Even if that's not the exact reason here, I could imagine a test facility where you had occupancy sensors inside and a lockout gate that operated in this fashion, and wouldn't allow a human to be inside the room while pressure was increased in the test valve. I honestly don't get the cowboy attitude in here, we can progress to space quickly AND safely. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieRwRS0VUUM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieRwRS0VUUM [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling [2]: https://youtu.be/ieRwRS0VUUM?t=578 https://youtu.be/ieRwRS0VUUM?t=578
- lolc 4y ago
  There's a section in the article relating the procedure of spraying the pressurized engine with a liquid to check for bubbles. The bubbles indicate leaks. Humans go close to the engine to check for leaks. They can point and call all they want, it is inherently unsafe for them to be there. It is unclear to me how that procedure could be replaced and I won't dismiss it as cowboy attitude.
  - Jtsummers 4y ago
    It's SpaceX, sister company of Tesla. They can have a small bot that goes around spraying and many cameras and other sensors observing. And given they're looking for potentially very small leaks from a pressurized system you wouldn't want a person physically present when the leak is discovered at high pressure anyways, not unless you want to see the effect of a very narrow high pressure stream hitting human skin (or a fast moving piece of hardware hitting their skull).
    - lolc 4y ago
      I'm sure if the tech were up to the task, they'd have a robot you could walk around with and look at things. But it'd need really good resolution and dynamic range paired with flexible and fine motor control to lean into an engine and look for tiny bubbles. This is a research field of its own. Not something they just have. For example: Humans improve their visual perception by lightly shifting their heads to avoid reflections, gauge shadows and mitigate obstructions. If the tech can't follow, you have an inferior solution. A solution where bubbles will be missed. Just staring at a screen is not the same. Even if you can tilt the camera.
  - andrewaylett 4y ago
    The bubble test is not carried out at full pressure. That's the point: you find the leaks before blowing the engine up because you didn't spot a leak. The tag-out system could, for example, use a pressure relief valve. I suspect they even have one already when running the test, but if someone was in the wrong space when the relief valve wasn't in place then I assume they're not using it as a tag point.

mabbo 4y ago

> lockout/tagout may seem unnecessary, but it's specifically to avoid exactly these types of situations Thank you! I was trying desperately to remember what that system is called but deleted that sentence from my reply because I had forgotten it!