3 ms·

I'm not a Rust apologetic, but even if the standard tooling committee appears, most big projects won't migrate to these tools, considering that they've been usi

by chad1n 4y ago

I'm not a Rust apologetic, but even if the standard tooling committee appears, most big projects won't migrate to these tools, considering that they've been using some building scripts for 10-20 years and maintaining dependencies in hacky ways. These standard tools will mostly help new projects in C++ which can start from scratch and use vcpkg and whatever building tool will be selected (probably cmake or meson).

bluGill 4y ago
Projects will slowly migrate, as things are updated ' when a third party library release a version with this they will add support. When they need new features in their build system they will add them in this format, creating a weird hybrid until one day they turn the old stuff off.
jcranmer 4y ago
There are a few things to note here. First, the hacky build systems of old are increasingly unsustainable; I've seen quite a few projects migrate to things like cmake in part because not having that kind of build system just doesn't work anymore. (And you get people like Mozilla or Google who write their own build system just for their software, but the end result is the same--you've got some sort of modern-ish build system being integrated). Even at $WORK, some of our old build system stuff with confusing make rules and the like is being shifted to a (hopefully) cleaner cmake stuff, albeit far more slowly than I'd like. Second, it's worth noting that tooling improvements can motivate change. The ur-example here is the compilation database idea Clang introduced. From what I've seen, every build system that can support it (sorry, autotools) has added information to extract this useful tool. If you can come up with similarly useful build system summary information that is useful for tooling, you're likely to see relatively swift adoption of it. Third, C++ is already undergoing changes that will introduce build system breakages. Most notably and obviously, modules. Build systems need to adapt to support this, and if people are already making the switch to get new features, incorporating other useful tooling additions at the same time would see adoption.
- cyber_kinetist 4y ago
  > I've seen quite a few projects migrate to things like cmake in part because not having that kind of build system just doesn't work anymore The problem is that CMake is also a cardboard castle built on numerous hacks that break every time a wind blows by. For library users it might be bearable, but for library writers it is absolute hell. And the consistent churn of new half-baked features and subpar documentation really doesn't help. (People talk about "modern" CMake like they do with "modern" C++, the churn is so similar...) The solution that I've found now is: I've built my own build system in Python that outputs a Ninja file, dead simple. Don't really have the urge to use CMake again (unless when I need to at $WORK)
  - germandiago 4y ago
    Let me play devil's advocate here. So you have your own Ninja file, great. How it deals with: - Use sanitizers - Compile for several operating systems, even some later you might need to port to. - Debug/relase/minsize builds - disable/enable warnings as errors - run test suites - use ccache - install stuff - consume external libraries - choose a nested common nested dependency for the same version for a lib, and, transitively, do it for all subdependencies (something I handle with Conan and/or Meson wraps) - dll import/export and symbol exposure - compile static/dynamic PIE/PIC libraries - custom compilation flags to distribute your lib god-does-not-know-where-yet. (for example distro maintainers) Now you might tell me you do not need much of that. And you would have a point. The problem is that when you start to mix and match projects If you have done all that, you did it ad-hoc. CMake at least can do it for all your projects. And CMake is really bad, IMHO, I much prefer Meson. For all the bad things CMake has, if you do even a 10th of this ad-hoc, you are already wasting time compared to using a battle-tested tool like CMake or Meson.
    - cyber_kinetist 4y ago
      > Use sanitizers You don't need CMake for this. You just add the relevant flags onto the specific compiler you're using, and CMake doesn't really help you with that. > Compile for several operating systems, even some later you might need to port to. Have you tried using it with Windows, especially with Clang / Clang-CL? I've tried it for several days and gave up (the final reason I ditched CMake and went on building my own). > Debug / Release / Minsize builds > Disable / Enable warnings as errors Again, add the relevant flags to your compiler? Don't see how CMake helps this. > Run test suites I personally use doctest for this, and you just need to compile your test executable with the header-only library. Again, no need for CMake. I really don't see how CTest really helps, maybe it's a teeny bit cleaner. > Install stuff > Consume external libraries I really don't like how Fetch_ContentDeclare works, I prefer having my dependencies being explicitly inside my repo (instead of needing to download from the Internet) whether it be in source or as a git submodule. And anyways, you need an external package manager other than CMake if you really want to manage this stuff properly in a more NPM/Cargo-esque way. > choose a nested common nested dependency for the same version for a lib, and, transitively, do it for all subdependencies I don't know if I have understood your sentence right... but CMake doesn't really like having different versions of the same library inside one project (because of CMake lacking any proper modules / namespaces), I remember struggling with this issue before. > DLL import/export and symbol exposure > Compile static/dynamic PIE/PIC libraries > custom compilation flags to distribute your lib god-does-not-know-where-yet Again, compiler flags. Overall, CMake might be nice if you are just using other people's libraries, don't really have that many customizations needed, and have relatively simple build processes (no complex custom code generation / compiler needed to be run). But if you are anywhere outside of that then prepare for a hell-like experience struggling with all the archaic under-documented options and searching for obscure StackOverflow questions. Like, the whole experience of using CMake feels so ad-hoc, up to the point that it seems better to make your own that fits for your specific use-case.

by chad1n 4y ago

bluGill 4y ago

Projects will slowly migrate, as things are updated ' when a third party library release a version with this they will add support. When they need new features in their build system they will add them in this format, creating a weird hybrid until one day they turn the old stuff off.

jcranmer 4y ago

There are a few things to note here. First, the hacky build systems of old are increasingly unsustainable; I've seen quite a few projects migrate to things like cmake in part because not having that kind of build system just doesn't work anymore. (And you get people like Mozilla or Google who write their own build system just for their software, but the end result is the same--you've got some sort of modern-ish build system being integrated). Even at $WORK, some of our old build system stuff with confusing make rules and the like is being shifted to a (hopefully) cleaner cmake stuff, albeit far more slowly than I'd like. Second, it's worth noting that tooling improvements can motivate change. The ur-example here is the compilation database idea Clang introduced. From what I've seen, every build system that can support it (sorry, autotools) has added information to extract this useful tool. If you can come up with similarly useful build system summary information that is useful for tooling, you're likely to see relatively swift adoption of it. Third, C++ is already undergoing changes that will introduce build system breakages. Most notably and obviously, modules. Build systems need to adapt to support this, and if people are already making the switch to get new features, incorporating other useful tooling additions at the same time would see adoption.

cyber_kinetist 4y ago
> I've seen quite a few projects migrate to things like cmake in part because not having that kind of build system just doesn't work anymore The problem is that CMake is also a cardboard castle built on numerous hacks that break every time a wind blows by. For library users it might be bearable, but for library writers it is absolute hell. And the consistent churn of new half-baked features and subpar documentation really doesn't help. (People talk about "modern" CMake like they do with "modern" C++, the churn is so similar...) The solution that I've found now is: I've built my own build system in Python that outputs a Ninja file, dead simple. Don't really have the urge to use CMake again (unless when I need to at $WORK)
- germandiago 4y ago
  Let me play devil's advocate here. So you have your own Ninja file, great. How it deals with: - Use sanitizers - Compile for several operating systems, even some later you might need to port to. - Debug/relase/minsize builds - disable/enable warnings as errors - run test suites - use ccache - install stuff - consume external libraries - choose a nested common nested dependency for the same version for a lib, and, transitively, do it for all subdependencies (something I handle with Conan and/or Meson wraps) - dll import/export and symbol exposure - compile static/dynamic PIE/PIC libraries - custom compilation flags to distribute your lib god-does-not-know-where-yet. (for example distro maintainers) Now you might tell me you do not need much of that. And you would have a point. The problem is that when you start to mix and match projects If you have done all that, you did it ad-hoc. CMake at least can do it for all your projects. And CMake is really bad, IMHO, I much prefer Meson. For all the bad things CMake has, if you do even a 10th of this ad-hoc, you are already wasting time compared to using a battle-tested tool like CMake or Meson.
  - cyber_kinetist 4y ago
    > Use sanitizers You don't need CMake for this. You just add the relevant flags onto the specific compiler you're using, and CMake doesn't really help you with that. > Compile for several operating systems, even some later you might need to port to. Have you tried using it with Windows, especially with Clang / Clang-CL? I've tried it for several days and gave up (the final reason I ditched CMake and went on building my own). > Debug / Release / Minsize builds > Disable / Enable warnings as errors Again, add the relevant flags to your compiler? Don't see how CMake helps this. > Run test suites I personally use doctest for this, and you just need to compile your test executable with the header-only library. Again, no need for CMake. I really don't see how CTest really helps, maybe it's a teeny bit cleaner. > Install stuff > Consume external libraries I really don't like how Fetch_ContentDeclare works, I prefer having my dependencies being explicitly inside my repo (instead of needing to download from the Internet) whether it be in source or as a git submodule. And anyways, you need an external package manager other than CMake if you really want to manage this stuff properly in a more NPM/Cargo-esque way. > choose a nested common nested dependency for the same version for a lib, and, transitively, do it for all subdependencies I don't know if I have understood your sentence right... but CMake doesn't really like having different versions of the same library inside one project (because of CMake lacking any proper modules / namespaces), I remember struggling with this issue before. > DLL import/export and symbol exposure > Compile static/dynamic PIE/PIC libraries > custom compilation flags to distribute your lib god-does-not-know-where-yet Again, compiler flags. Overall, CMake might be nice if you are just using other people's libraries, don't really have that many customizations needed, and have relatively simple build processes (no complex custom code generation / compiler needed to be run). But if you are anywhere outside of that then prepare for a hell-like experience struggling with all the archaic under-documented options and searching for obscure StackOverflow questions. Like, the whole experience of using CMake feels so ad-hoc, up to the point that it seems better to make your own that fits for your specific use-case.