3 ms·

This viewpoint is pretty modern (mid-20th century onwards) - historically, many 'pure science' pursuits were the hobbies or obsessions of the relatively wealthy

This viewpoint is pretty modern (mid-20th century onwards) - historically, many 'pure science' pursuits were the hobbies or obsessions of the relatively wealthy aristrocrat classes, and they really were motivated by curiousity (as their basic physical needs were already well-provided for), with the exception of rather small groups that found funding in other ways (Royal Society of Britain), who even then tended to rely heavily on things like royal patronage (see Euler, Kepler, etc. for example). Even now, in the era of federal grants provinding the meat & potatoes, a lot of scientists have multiple motivations, as in 'this line of research really is quite useful to industrial progress/understanding nature/fighting disease/etc and thus human civilization' as well as 'hey, I can make a decent living and get a fair amount of social prestige by doing this'. The internal bureaucratic politics of the modern science world are pretty nasty though, it's like bad office politics on steroids. Possibly the most extreme example of how it call all go wrong is seen in the legacy of Trofim Lysenko in the Soviet Union. Comparing Anthony Fauci to Lysenko might seem a bit extreme but recent events show how these types can utilize their power to protect their position, even if the kind of 'science' they're promoting is either reckless and dishonest or just manufactured ideological nonsense.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
If you follow Ted's arguments, the hobbies of wealthy aristocrat classes are perhaps the purest example of surrogate activities. He explains the concept of surrogate activities using leisured aristocrats as his prime example: 38. But not every leisured aristocrat becomes bored and demoralized. For example, the emperor Hirohito, instead of sinking into decadent hedonism, devoted himself to marine biology, a field in which he became distinguished. When people do not have to exert themselves to satisfy their physical needs they often set up artificial goals for themselves. In many cases they then pursue these goals with the same energy and emotional involvement that they otherwise would have put into the search for physical necessities. Thus the aristocrats of the Roman Empire had their literary pretensions; many European aristocrats a few centuries ago invested tremendous time and energy in hunting, though they certainly didn't need the meat; other aristocracies have competed for status through elaborate displays of wealth; and a few aristocrats, like Hirohito, have turned to science. 39. We use the term "surrogate activity" to designate an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward, or let us say, merely for the sake of the "fulfillment" that they get from pursuing the goal. Here is a rule of thumb for the identification of surrogate activities. Given a person who devotes much time and energy to the pursuit of goal X, ask yourself this: If he had to devote most of his time and energy to satisfying his biological needs, and if that effort required him to use his physical and mental faculties in a varied and interesting way, would he feel seriously deprived because he did not attain goal X? If the answer is no, then the person's pursuit of goal X is a surrogate activity. Hirohito's studies in marine biology clearly constituted a surrogate activity, since it is pretty certain that if Hirohito had had to spend his time working at interesting non-scientific tasks in order to obtain the necessities of life, he would not have felt deprived because he didn't know all about the anatomy and life-cycles of marine animals. On the other hand the pursuit of sex and love (for example) is not a surrogate activity, because most people, even if their existence were otherwise satisfactory, would feel deprived if they passed their lives without ever having a relationship with a member of the opposite sex. (But pursuit of an excessive amount of sex, more than one really needs, can be a surrogate activity.)
- photochemsyn 4y ago
  This viewpoint seems to imply that anything not directly related to biological survival and procreation is a 'surrogate activity' which then includes all of art, science, literature, etc. Would this author also classify some of the earliest human technologies (controlling fire, making tools, propagating plants from seeds) as 'surrogate activities' as well? It seems like a logical quandry. If the only measure of non-surrogate activity is something like 'does this activity contribute to the survival of the individual, the family, the society, the species', and if science is a surrogate activity, then why isn't learning how to control fire also an unnecessary and frivolous activity?
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    > This viewpoint seems to imply that anything not directly related to biological survival and procreation is a 'surrogate activity' which then includes all of art, science, literature, etc. Pretty much yeah. I don't think he's implying it as much as saying that outright. He doesn't condemn all surrogate activities equally though. He has ire specifically for those surrogate activities he believes inevitably restrict the freedom of individuals to go through their own power process, specifically science and industrialization. I'll not dump more large quotations in this thread, but read the section "Restriction of Freedom is Unavoidable in Industrial Society" if you want to hear his reasoning for this. I am not an anarcho-primitivist so the above is not the point I am trying to make. I provided the quotations in my previous comments to answer the question "why would we do this? Just because we can?" I believe the answer is this: "scientists work mainly for the fulfillment they get out of the work itself."

MichaelCollins 4y ago

If you follow Ted's arguments, the hobbies of wealthy aristocrat classes are perhaps the purest example of surrogate activities. He explains the concept of surrogate activities using leisured aristocrats as his prime example: 38. But not every leisured aristocrat becomes bored and demoralized. For example, the emperor Hirohito, instead of sinking into decadent hedonism, devoted himself to marine biology, a field in which he became distinguished. When people do not have to exert themselves to satisfy their physical needs they often set up artificial goals for themselves. In many cases they then pursue these goals with the same energy and emotional involvement that they otherwise would have put into the search for physical necessities. Thus the aristocrats of the Roman Empire had their literary pretensions; many European aristocrats a few centuries ago invested tremendous time and energy in hunting, though they certainly didn't need the meat; other aristocracies have competed for status through elaborate displays of wealth; and a few aristocrats, like Hirohito, have turned to science. 39. We use the term "surrogate activity" to designate an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward, or let us say, merely for the sake of the "fulfillment" that they get from pursuing the goal. Here is a rule of thumb for the identification of surrogate activities. Given a person who devotes much time and energy to the pursuit of goal X, ask yourself this: If he had to devote most of his time and energy to satisfying his biological needs, and if that effort required him to use his physical and mental faculties in a varied and interesting way, would he feel seriously deprived because he did not attain goal X? If the answer is no, then the person's pursuit of goal X is a surrogate activity. Hirohito's studies in marine biology clearly constituted a surrogate activity, since it is pretty certain that if Hirohito had had to spend his time working at interesting non-scientific tasks in order to obtain the necessities of life, he would not have felt deprived because he didn't know all about the anatomy and life-cycles of marine animals. On the other hand the pursuit of sex and love (for example) is not a surrogate activity, because most people, even if their existence were otherwise satisfactory, would feel deprived if they passed their lives without ever having a relationship with a member of the opposite sex. (But pursuit of an excessive amount of sex, more than one really needs, can be a surrogate activity.)

photochemsyn 4y ago
This viewpoint seems to imply that anything not directly related to biological survival and procreation is a 'surrogate activity' which then includes all of art, science, literature, etc. Would this author also classify some of the earliest human technologies (controlling fire, making tools, propagating plants from seeds) as 'surrogate activities' as well? It seems like a logical quandry. If the only measure of non-surrogate activity is something like 'does this activity contribute to the survival of the individual, the family, the society, the species', and if science is a surrogate activity, then why isn't learning how to control fire also an unnecessary and frivolous activity?
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > This viewpoint seems to imply that anything not directly related to biological survival and procreation is a 'surrogate activity' which then includes all of art, science, literature, etc. Pretty much yeah. I don't think he's implying it as much as saying that outright. He doesn't condemn all surrogate activities equally though. He has ire specifically for those surrogate activities he believes inevitably restrict the freedom of individuals to go through their own power process, specifically science and industrialization. I'll not dump more large quotations in this thread, but read the section "Restriction of Freedom is Unavoidable in Industrial Society" if you want to hear his reasoning for this. I am not an anarcho-primitivist so the above is not the point I am trying to make. I provided the quotations in my previous comments to answer the question "why would we do this? Just because we can?" I believe the answer is this: "scientists work mainly for the fulfillment they get out of the work itself."