5 ms·

> I can't find anything on how to design and implement anymore more than the barebones basics of a system. All of this stuff (horse/horses etc) is extensively

> I can't find anything on how to design and implement anymore more than the barebones basics of a system. All of this stuff (horse/horses etc) is extensively discussed, maybe look under "taxonomy" or "ontology". Now, whether you want to use any of those solutions or not or find the discussion useful or not... if you aren't finding anything about it at all, you aren't looking in the right places. (I learned about it in librarian school)

edflsafoiewq 4y ago
Can you link some resources about it then?
- tantalor 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_and_information_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_and_information_scienc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(metadata) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(metadata)
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  I could, but honestly I'd just be googling "taxonomy". But ok that's not entirely true, I know how to refine my search and recognize when something is what I'm thinking of, from some familiarity with the field. (But if you want to look around, in addition to "taxonomy" and "ontology", other good terms are "information architecture" and "controlled vocabulary"). These are not things I have vetted, this is literally just me googling and taking a quick skim... https://blog.optimalworkshop.com/how-to-develop-a-taxonomy-for-your-information-architecture/ https://blog.optimalworkshop.com/how-to-develop-a-taxonomy-f... https://www.uxbooth.com/articles/introduction-to-taxonomies/ https://www.uxbooth.com/articles/introduction-to-taxonomies/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/taxonomy-101/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/taxonomy-101/ http://accidental-taxonomist.blogspot.com/2020/11/what-it-thesaurus-and-what-is-it-good.html http://accidental-taxonomist.blogspot.com/2020/11/what-it-th... Or how about some textbooks: https://narrowgaugebooks.indielite.org/book/9781627055802 https://narrowgaugebooks.indielite.org/book/9781627055802 https://www.hedden-information.com/accidental-taxonomist/ https://www.hedden-information.com/accidental-taxonomist/
- Tomte 4y ago
  This is German, but I found it very good: https://www.isi.hhu.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Fakultaeten/Philosophische_Fakultaet/Sprache_und_Information/Informationswissenschaft/Dateien/Wolfgang_G._Stock/Wissensrepraesentation-2.pdf https://www.isi.hhu.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Fakultaeten/Philo... Books: * Cataloging the World * Organising Knowledge. Taxonomies, Knowledge and Organisational Effectiveness * The Intellectual Foundation of Information Organization * The Oxford Guide to Library Research
- meej 4y ago
  This is a good basic overview, goes beyond tagging/indexing, was the textbook in LIS501 Information Organization and Access at UIUC-GSLIS (now the iSchool at Illinois) in 2006: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262512619/the-intellectual-foundation-of-information-organization/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262512619/the-intellectual-foun... Controlled vocab standards: https://www.niso.org/publications/ansiniso-z3919-2005-r2010 https://www.niso.org/publications/ansiniso-z3919-2005-r2010 (this one is deprecated in favor the one that follows) https://www.niso.org/schemas/iso25964 https://www.niso.org/schemas/iso25964 https://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/ https://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/ The book we used in my thesaurus construction class at UIUC: https://www.alastore.ala.org/content/essential-thesaurus-construction https://www.alastore.ala.org/content/essential-thesaurus-con... My favorite intro to semantic modeling with RDF/OWL/SPARQL: http://workingontologist.org/ http://workingontologist.org/ Topic Maps are dead but i still have a soft spot for them: https://www.isotopicmaps.org/ https://www.isotopicmaps.org/ I also recommend Heather Hedden, linked in jrockhind's post.
chaostheory 4y ago
Yeah, the content for learning has been around for over a decade or mor Plus we have plenty of content for AI now https://towardsdatascience.com/machine-learning-classifiers-a5cc4e1b0623 https://towardsdatascience.com/machine-learning-classifiers-...
pvg 4y ago
(I learned about it in librarian school) As the rest of us learned during the first tagging boom, the librarian is the natural apex predator of tagging.
- stinkytaco 4y ago
  I've been a librarian for more than 15 years and I can only speak from personal experience when I say that I am the apex predator of nothing. Every once and a while I will get it in my head to systematize my personal knowledge base with a controlled vocabulary and ontology and I just fall on my face. I really want it for some twisted reason, though. Turns out LC subject headings -- for all their failures -- are pretty good.
  - robocat 4y ago
    > controlled vocabulary Are you using English? English words can almost mean whatever you want them to. Perhaps design your own language that removes ambiguity. Probably requires a knowledge of philosophy to distinguish between say concrete and abstract, good luck. Maybe start with correcting the ontology of: https://cuberule.com/ https://cuberule.com/ (which takes a geometric approach to defining food types). Also perhaps decide whether you want to work top-down like a directory tree (or Dewey Decimal?): resulting in standard book classification issues. Or bottom up: resulting in conflicts and discrepancies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33254025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33254025
    - bccdee 4y ago
      > Perhaps design your own language that removes ambiguity. That's what a controlled vocabulary is. It's essentially a set of tags which are clearly defined. So instead of #horses being defined purely by the word "horses," it has an attached definition along the lines of, "The category 'horses' includes equine biology, sports relating to horses, the cultural history of horses, and all other topics involving real horses. Metaphorical horses such as saw horses are not included." Tags like #horse would be redirected to #horses, since there is only one canonical horse tag in the vocabulary.
samastur 4y ago
The problem isn't knowing what the problem is (taxonomy and ontology), but how to implement it effectively. I've seen enough of Hillel's posts over the years that I am fairly sure he is aware of taxonomy/ontology too.
lofatdairy 4y ago
To be fair to OP, the biggest hurdle in learning anything is knowing what questions to ask. When you don't have ontology as part of your vocabulary it's hard to find literature regarding, say, "comparison of ontologies for user-generated text content". I suppose this flows back into library science, which is all about systematizing where to look for answers to questions, but I'm always astonished to find that there's oceans of literature and research in questions I haven't even thought to ask.
- vonseel 4y ago
  I think OP is referring to finding software-engineering related design discussions surrounding tagging systems, but yes, I’m sure there is a great depth of ontology material and librarian knowledge that could add to software system designs.
avgcorrection 4y ago
Librarians are the people that we (technologists) should learn from. But all I see is programmers trying to invent things from first principles.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Eh, as the librarian who wrote the post you're replying to... I am actually ambivalent. I wish librarianship as a field and industry were more what I'd fantasize it should/could be, but it's not so much.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    How so? What's missing / what would you remove and/or change?

edflsafoiewq 4y ago

Can you link some resources about it then?

tantalor 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_and_information_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_and_information_scienc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(metadata) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(metadata)
jrochkind1 4y ago
I could, but honestly I'd just be googling "taxonomy". But ok that's not entirely true, I know how to refine my search and recognize when something is what I'm thinking of, from some familiarity with the field. (But if you want to look around, in addition to "taxonomy" and "ontology", other good terms are "information architecture" and "controlled vocabulary"). These are not things I have vetted, this is literally just me googling and taking a quick skim... https://blog.optimalworkshop.com/how-to-develop-a-taxonomy-for-your-information-architecture/ https://blog.optimalworkshop.com/how-to-develop-a-taxonomy-f... https://www.uxbooth.com/articles/introduction-to-taxonomies/ https://www.uxbooth.com/articles/introduction-to-taxonomies/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/taxonomy-101/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/taxonomy-101/ http://accidental-taxonomist.blogspot.com/2020/11/what-it-thesaurus-and-what-is-it-good.html http://accidental-taxonomist.blogspot.com/2020/11/what-it-th... Or how about some textbooks: https://narrowgaugebooks.indielite.org/book/9781627055802 https://narrowgaugebooks.indielite.org/book/9781627055802 https://www.hedden-information.com/accidental-taxonomist/ https://www.hedden-information.com/accidental-taxonomist/
Tomte 4y ago
This is German, but I found it very good: https://www.isi.hhu.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Fakultaeten/Philosophische_Fakultaet/Sprache_und_Information/Informationswissenschaft/Dateien/Wolfgang_G._Stock/Wissensrepraesentation-2.pdf https://www.isi.hhu.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Fakultaeten/Philo... Books: * Cataloging the World * Organising Knowledge. Taxonomies, Knowledge and Organisational Effectiveness * The Intellectual Foundation of Information Organization * The Oxford Guide to Library Research
meej 4y ago
This is a good basic overview, goes beyond tagging/indexing, was the textbook in LIS501 Information Organization and Access at UIUC-GSLIS (now the iSchool at Illinois) in 2006: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262512619/the-intellectual-foundation-of-information-organization/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262512619/the-intellectual-foun... Controlled vocab standards: https://www.niso.org/publications/ansiniso-z3919-2005-r2010 https://www.niso.org/publications/ansiniso-z3919-2005-r2010 (this one is deprecated in favor the one that follows) https://www.niso.org/schemas/iso25964 https://www.niso.org/schemas/iso25964 https://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/ https://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/ The book we used in my thesaurus construction class at UIUC: https://www.alastore.ala.org/content/essential-thesaurus-construction https://www.alastore.ala.org/content/essential-thesaurus-con... My favorite intro to semantic modeling with RDF/OWL/SPARQL: http://workingontologist.org/ http://workingontologist.org/ Topic Maps are dead but i still have a soft spot for them: https://www.isotopicmaps.org/ https://www.isotopicmaps.org/ I also recommend Heather Hedden, linked in jrockhind's post.

chaostheory 4y ago

Yeah, the content for learning has been around for over a decade or mor Plus we have plenty of content for AI now https://towardsdatascience.com/machine-learning-classifiers-a5cc4e1b0623 https://towardsdatascience.com/machine-learning-classifiers-...

pvg 4y ago

(I learned about it in librarian school) As the rest of us learned during the first tagging boom, the librarian is the natural apex predator of tagging.

stinkytaco 4y ago
I've been a librarian for more than 15 years and I can only speak from personal experience when I say that I am the apex predator of nothing. Every once and a while I will get it in my head to systematize my personal knowledge base with a controlled vocabulary and ontology and I just fall on my face. I really want it for some twisted reason, though. Turns out LC subject headings -- for all their failures -- are pretty good.
- robocat 4y ago
  > controlled vocabulary Are you using English? English words can almost mean whatever you want them to. Perhaps design your own language that removes ambiguity. Probably requires a knowledge of philosophy to distinguish between say concrete and abstract, good luck. Maybe start with correcting the ontology of: https://cuberule.com/ https://cuberule.com/ (which takes a geometric approach to defining food types). Also perhaps decide whether you want to work top-down like a directory tree (or Dewey Decimal?): resulting in standard book classification issues. Or bottom up: resulting in conflicts and discrepancies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33254025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33254025
  - bccdee 4y ago
    > Perhaps design your own language that removes ambiguity. That's what a controlled vocabulary is. It's essentially a set of tags which are clearly defined. So instead of #horses being defined purely by the word "horses," it has an attached definition along the lines of, "The category 'horses' includes equine biology, sports relating to horses, the cultural history of horses, and all other topics involving real horses. Metaphorical horses such as saw horses are not included." Tags like #horse would be redirected to #horses, since there is only one canonical horse tag in the vocabulary.

samastur 4y ago

The problem isn't knowing what the problem is (taxonomy and ontology), but how to implement it effectively. I've seen enough of Hillel's posts over the years that I am fairly sure he is aware of taxonomy/ontology too.

lofatdairy 4y ago

To be fair to OP, the biggest hurdle in learning anything is knowing what questions to ask. When you don't have ontology as part of your vocabulary it's hard to find literature regarding, say, "comparison of ontologies for user-generated text content". I suppose this flows back into library science, which is all about systematizing where to look for answers to questions, but I'm always astonished to find that there's oceans of literature and research in questions I haven't even thought to ask.

vonseel 4y ago
I think OP is referring to finding software-engineering related design discussions surrounding tagging systems, but yes, I’m sure there is a great depth of ontology material and librarian knowledge that could add to software system designs.

avgcorrection 4y ago

Librarians are the people that we (technologists) should learn from. But all I see is programmers trying to invent things from first principles.

jrochkind1 4y ago
Eh, as the librarian who wrote the post you're replying to... I am actually ambivalent. I wish librarianship as a field and industry were more what I'd fantasize it should/could be, but it's not so much.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  How so? What's missing / what would you remove and/or change?