4 ms·

Might be difficult to get people to work there.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
Endangering billions of people because virologists prefer to be urbanite yuppies. Research so important that such a risk is accepted, but not so important that it would make sense to simply pay virologists 5x more to live somewhere remote. This is madness.
- rhacker 4y ago
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Dune has been on my mind recently. In the universe of Dune, AI research brings humanity to the brink of ruin. After the rebellion against this, a commandment against creating AIs is added to the major religions. Those found guilty of creating or possessing thinking machines should be sentenced to immediate death. The demonstrable peril of such research is severe enough to justify that punishment. If virologists create and lose control of something that kills billions of people, wouldn't that justify an ultimate taboo against that kind of research? Maybe that's why virologists all clam up and circle the wagons when something sketchy happens. They say nobody but other virologists are qualified to question virology, but how can they be trusted to regulate themselves?
    - giantg2 4y ago
      The funny thing is, there are some virologists/scientists questioning if the lab was involved (just a minority though).
    - lukeschlather 4y ago
      On the other hand, it's easy to imagine that this sort of research is the only path to permanently curing Coronaviruses (and not just Coronaviruses but also Influenza.) As bad as this pandemic was if it was a required step on the road to permanently curing both Coronaviruses and Influenza... that's a no-brainer, it's well worth the pain, it will save billions of lives. Also if delaying this research delays such a hypothetical Influenza cure by 30 years, that will cost more lives than this pandemic did too.
    - notahacker 4y ago
      I'm reasonably confident that there's a more obvious explanation for virologists tending to back other virologists over homeopaths, politicians and contrarians frantically Googling basic virology knowledge in debates about viral transmission and protein structures than fear of Dune-inspired death sentences for every practitioner of their profession. Sure, and programmers all circle the wagons every time someone suggests that if the company recruits twice as many people to the team it'll get the project done at least twice as quickly. Maybe it's because they're scared of the employment implications of senior management knowing best :D Back in reality, half the evidence presented in favour of the 'lab leak' hypothesis is in fact the long list of actual lab leaks virologists have identified and blamed virologists for...
    - benibela 4y ago
      Or Anathem by Neal Stephenson They do not just ban AI, but almost all experimental research. All the researchers are isolated in monasteries and only get visited once each decade/century.
JPLeRouzic 4y ago
Can't a lot of things automated and operated at distance? After all we can do lab experiences on Mars, why not at 200 miles (300km) ?
hallway_monitor 4y ago
So pay them a little more - enough that you can ask them to live there for 6 months at a time to reduce risk of pathogen escape as much as possible. If this type of dangerous research is actually valuable enough to keep doing, then it is valuable enough to implement protocols like this.
buscoquadnary 4y ago
It's really not and is quite common. You keep the site out a ways have workers show up and then bus them out to the site. You only have to keep the site where you are doing the work way out there and so people can do their regular non lab related work closer to home. It's a really common practice. I live near a national nuclear research lab and they do that. I also grew up near an ICBM building and designing facility and when they needed to run tests they drive several hours out to the west desert to do things just to be safe. It's not that uncommon or inconvenient, and makes a hell of a lot more sense then just slapping it in the middle of a major metro area. Seriously we've got tons of land out west that is about a million miles from everything let's use some of that.
- giantg2 4y ago
  One difference is the bussing may need to be combined with a quarantine period which wouldn't be necessary with nuclear or chemical research.
  - buscoquadnary 4y ago
    Would it though? I mean, I am assuming there aren't quarantine procedures right now. You'd just have to make sure you have appropriate disinfectant/decontamination guidelines. Heck just require decontamination as you leave the lab and as you get off the bus, two times makes it more safe, and I'd imagine a 40 minute bus ride through the sweltering west desert heat in direct isn't an environment that microorganisms my flourish in. Plus that's easy to do to if there is a quarantine period, out people on shifts of 5-7 days on site, one week off. That's what they do for the oil rigs, plenty of people live like that, it isn't easy, or cheap for the company but a global pandemic that locked down countries shattered supply chains and wreaked havoc with the global economy was a hell of a lot more expensive.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      "Plus that's easy to do to if there is a quarantine period, out people on shifts of 5-7 days on site, one week off." Exactly. "have appropriate disinfectant/decontamination guidelines." Yeah... it seems there have been some issues with people consistently following them. At least with the quarantine you have some defense in depth in case the procedures in the lab failed. (I think a woman in Fance died doing prion research. Why? Because she violated multiple protocols. I want to say she didn't even report it at first, but I could be wrong. And this isnt even a true infectious disease)
giantg2 4y ago
Somehow they make this sort of model work for various classified work in places like NM (although population centers have grown around them due to their size and support requirements). I don't see why something similar can't be done for this. Plenty of Government land in those desert areas out west too.
godelski 4y ago
A significant number of military bases operate like this. Edwards and China Lake are great examples. Los Alamos. Even Fermi. Cities developed around these areas over time, but they once were only military/gov projects.

Endangering billions of people because virologists prefer to be urbanite yuppies. Research so important that such a risk is accepted, but not so important that it would make sense to simply pay virologists 5x more to live somewhere remote. This is madness.

rhacker 4y ago
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Dune has been on my mind recently. In the universe of Dune, AI research brings humanity to the brink of ruin. After the rebellion against this, a commandment against creating AIs is added to the major religions. Those found guilty of creating or possessing thinking machines should be sentenced to immediate death. The demonstrable peril of such research is severe enough to justify that punishment. If virologists create and lose control of something that kills billions of people, wouldn't that justify an ultimate taboo against that kind of research? Maybe that's why virologists all clam up and circle the wagons when something sketchy happens. They say nobody but other virologists are qualified to question virology, but how can they be trusted to regulate themselves?
  - giantg2 4y ago
    The funny thing is, there are some virologists/scientists questioning if the lab was involved (just a minority though).
  - lukeschlather 4y ago
    On the other hand, it's easy to imagine that this sort of research is the only path to permanently curing Coronaviruses (and not just Coronaviruses but also Influenza.) As bad as this pandemic was if it was a required step on the road to permanently curing both Coronaviruses and Influenza... that's a no-brainer, it's well worth the pain, it will save billions of lives. Also if delaying this research delays such a hypothetical Influenza cure by 30 years, that will cost more lives than this pandemic did too.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    I'm reasonably confident that there's a more obvious explanation for virologists tending to back other virologists over homeopaths, politicians and contrarians frantically Googling basic virology knowledge in debates about viral transmission and protein structures than fear of Dune-inspired death sentences for every practitioner of their profession. Sure, and programmers all circle the wagons every time someone suggests that if the company recruits twice as many people to the team it'll get the project done at least twice as quickly. Maybe it's because they're scared of the employment implications of senior management knowing best :D Back in reality, half the evidence presented in favour of the 'lab leak' hypothesis is in fact the long list of actual lab leaks virologists have identified and blamed virologists for...
  - benibela 4y ago
    Or Anathem by Neal Stephenson They do not just ban AI, but almost all experimental research. All the researchers are isolated in monasteries and only get visited once each decade/century.

JPLeRouzic 4y ago

Can't a lot of things automated and operated at distance? After all we can do lab experiences on Mars, why not at 200 miles (300km) ?

hallway_monitor 4y ago

So pay them a little more - enough that you can ask them to live there for 6 months at a time to reduce risk of pathogen escape as much as possible. If this type of dangerous research is actually valuable enough to keep doing, then it is valuable enough to implement protocols like this.

buscoquadnary 4y ago

It's really not and is quite common. You keep the site out a ways have workers show up and then bus them out to the site. You only have to keep the site where you are doing the work way out there and so people can do their regular non lab related work closer to home. It's a really common practice. I live near a national nuclear research lab and they do that. I also grew up near an ICBM building and designing facility and when they needed to run tests they drive several hours out to the west desert to do things just to be safe. It's not that uncommon or inconvenient, and makes a hell of a lot more sense then just slapping it in the middle of a major metro area. Seriously we've got tons of land out west that is about a million miles from everything let's use some of that.

giantg2 4y ago
One difference is the bussing may need to be combined with a quarantine period which wouldn't be necessary with nuclear or chemical research.
- buscoquadnary 4y ago
  Would it though? I mean, I am assuming there aren't quarantine procedures right now. You'd just have to make sure you have appropriate disinfectant/decontamination guidelines. Heck just require decontamination as you leave the lab and as you get off the bus, two times makes it more safe, and I'd imagine a 40 minute bus ride through the sweltering west desert heat in direct isn't an environment that microorganisms my flourish in. Plus that's easy to do to if there is a quarantine period, out people on shifts of 5-7 days on site, one week off. That's what they do for the oil rigs, plenty of people live like that, it isn't easy, or cheap for the company but a global pandemic that locked down countries shattered supply chains and wreaked havoc with the global economy was a hell of a lot more expensive.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "Plus that's easy to do to if there is a quarantine period, out people on shifts of 5-7 days on site, one week off." Exactly. "have appropriate disinfectant/decontamination guidelines." Yeah... it seems there have been some issues with people consistently following them. At least with the quarantine you have some defense in depth in case the procedures in the lab failed. (I think a woman in Fance died doing prion research. Why? Because she violated multiple protocols. I want to say she didn't even report it at first, but I could be wrong. And this isnt even a true infectious disease)

giantg2 4y ago

Somehow they make this sort of model work for various classified work in places like NM (although population centers have grown around them due to their size and support requirements). I don't see why something similar can't be done for this. Plenty of Government land in those desert areas out west too.

godelski 4y ago

A significant number of military bases operate like this. Edwards and China Lake are great examples. Los Alamos. Even Fermi. Cities developed around these areas over time, but they once were only military/gov projects.