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> It currently uses .1% of global energy ie. about between 300 and a million times more energy than VISA/Mastercard when adjusted to the number of transactions

> It currently uses .1% of global energy ie. about between 300 and a million times more energy than VISA/Mastercard when adjusted to the number of transactions. [0] > It makes use of stranded energy Miners who mine 24/7, by definition, do not consume stranded energy. There are no numbers whatsoever that can affirm which part of the miners use stranded energy. On the other hand, when one coal mine got flooded in China last year, 33% of the mining power came to a halt. [1] > off peak energy stabilizing grid production So much stabilizing it has caused blackouts in several countries [2]. Texas has resorted to pay miners so they don't cause blackouts [3] > incentivizes green energy build outs No, it incentivizes cheap electricity sources. Moreover in the topic of climate change the greenest energy is the one you don't consume. > with the landfill methane caputure business will soon be the only digital asset that is carbon negative What? Landfill methane business is basically saying "instead of just burning methane, let's burn it and use the heat to power up some BTC mining". At best, that makes the operation carbon neutral. If you are trolling, I must say, congrats, you triggered me. [0] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [1] https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/ https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-env... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/kazakhstan-unplugged-bitcoin-miners-before-blackout-hit-region https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/kazakhsta..., https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59879760 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59879760, https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/26/iran-bans-bitcoin-mining-as-its-cities-suffer-blackouts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/26/iran-bans-bitcoin-mining-as-... [3] https://fortune.com/2022/07/12/texas-bitcoin-miners-paid-shut-down-power-grid-electricity-blackout-heat/ https://fortune.com/2022/07/12/texas-bitcoin-miners-paid-shu...

plebianRube 4y ago
Great thing about bitcoin is you don't have to use it at all. It is opt in. I don't tell you what to do with things you buy that I think are useless. Those who purchase or generate electricity can do so with it as they wish, it is a free market. You can post all of the articles you want, the innovaters are outpacing the obstructionists as they have been for millennia, it's nothing new under the sun, and progress marches on.
- lolc 4y ago
  You came on with claims of how good Bitcoin mining is for the climate. When someone counters your arguments, citing sources? Eh whatever liberty something. So do you believe what you were evangelizing about?
- Defitio 4y ago
  It's not a free market. There is no lead paint anymore and no lead in gasoline. I'm often wondering who is behind those comments. You should be quite aware that there are plenty of counter examples to this 'free market's statement. And yes there also laws like non smoking to protect others. Energy can also be shut down for you from the energy ministry if your usage has a risk to the power grid. About the uselessness point: also not a good point on your side. We all life on one planet. It's absolutely valid to have a discussion like this.
  - plebianRube 4y ago
    You're going to have to get used to people ignoring you and working around you then. I don't want to help you understand bitcoin, because I don't want insufferable obstructionists having a say in humanity's future. What you value is cleary different than what I value and that's fine, but there is nothing you can do to stop me from using my preferred value store, and that is exactly the point.
    - Defitio 4y ago
      You would at least be honest in a discussion if you say that you don't care for the climate impact or accept that your arguments in regard of Bitcoin and being green are wrong. I'm not arguing for people like you who don't care. I argue for everyone who hasn't maid up their minds and want to have real arguments for pro and con. Without people like me there would be no push back at all and there is active push back. The power station in NY got much more criticism than it would have gotten otherwise (none). Very weird your reaction though. Do you'really believe I stop arguing against Bitcoin just because crypto bros don't care for arguments?
scottiebarnes 4y ago
> ie. about between 300 and a million times more energy than VISA/Mastercard when adjusted to the number of transactions. [0] This isn't really an apple to apples comparison. Since Bitcoin is a programmable platform, its possible to scale upwards exponentially with layer 2's (Lightning network), which allows for even more tps. Since transactions wouldn't need to run on the main chain (other than opening and closing channels), the upper bound is much higher. https://d-central.tech/bitcoins-lightning-network-from-seven-to-40-million-tps/ https://d-central.tech/bitcoins-lightning-network-from-seven...
- plopilop 4y ago
  A real, complete comparison is impossible as the two systems are fundamentally different and too complicated. What I like with that comparison is remains very simple. If you'd scale BTC to the amount of tx operated by VISA/MC, you'd need around 50% of the world electricity, which is clearly more than what Visa takes. Also it's a comparison of the fundamental part of the exchange, i.e. the authority checking for the authorization (visa or the miner). If we incorporate the lightning network, then we must also take into account the electricity to run the servers for the intermediate exchanges etc. On the other hand, one could also lower the fiat electricity cost by factoring in the cash transactions. TBH i'd be interested to see a reasonable estimation of the BTC+lightning emission costs per transaction, I'll admit I have no idea how much lightning brings the cost down.
  - scottiebarnes 4y ago
    > If you'd scale BTC to the amount of tx operated by VISA/MC, you'd need around 50% of the world electricity Well, it doesn't make sense to scale the main chain in that sort of way, because you'd be looking at blocks the size of several terabytes in order to fit in global scale transactions. And so running a node would then require you to basically run a data center, which wouldn't make the system decentralized at all. Electricity for mining is also not directly related to transaction throughput. Mining is the arbitrage of bitcoin price and electricity/mining hardware cost. The system technically does not need more electricity to secure the same amount of transactions. What happens is when bitcoin's price goes up, so does that arbitrage value, giving mining a profit incentive.

plebianRube 4y ago

Great thing about bitcoin is you don't have to use it at all. It is opt in. I don't tell you what to do with things you buy that I think are useless. Those who purchase or generate electricity can do so with it as they wish, it is a free market. You can post all of the articles you want, the innovaters are outpacing the obstructionists as they have been for millennia, it's nothing new under the sun, and progress marches on.

lolc 4y ago
You came on with claims of how good Bitcoin mining is for the climate. When someone counters your arguments, citing sources? Eh whatever liberty something. So do you believe what you were evangelizing about?
Defitio 4y ago
It's not a free market. There is no lead paint anymore and no lead in gasoline. I'm often wondering who is behind those comments. You should be quite aware that there are plenty of counter examples to this 'free market's statement. And yes there also laws like non smoking to protect others. Energy can also be shut down for you from the energy ministry if your usage has a risk to the power grid. About the uselessness point: also not a good point on your side. We all life on one planet. It's absolutely valid to have a discussion like this.
- plebianRube 4y ago
  You're going to have to get used to people ignoring you and working around you then. I don't want to help you understand bitcoin, because I don't want insufferable obstructionists having a say in humanity's future. What you value is cleary different than what I value and that's fine, but there is nothing you can do to stop me from using my preferred value store, and that is exactly the point.
  - Defitio 4y ago
    You would at least be honest in a discussion if you say that you don't care for the climate impact or accept that your arguments in regard of Bitcoin and being green are wrong. I'm not arguing for people like you who don't care. I argue for everyone who hasn't maid up their minds and want to have real arguments for pro and con. Without people like me there would be no push back at all and there is active push back. The power station in NY got much more criticism than it would have gotten otherwise (none). Very weird your reaction though. Do you'really believe I stop arguing against Bitcoin just because crypto bros don't care for arguments?

scottiebarnes 4y ago

> ie. about between 300 and a million times more energy than VISA/Mastercard when adjusted to the number of transactions. [0] This isn't really an apple to apples comparison. Since Bitcoin is a programmable platform, its possible to scale upwards exponentially with layer 2's (Lightning network), which allows for even more tps. Since transactions wouldn't need to run on the main chain (other than opening and closing channels), the upper bound is much higher. https://d-central.tech/bitcoins-lightning-network-from-seven-to-40-million-tps/ https://d-central.tech/bitcoins-lightning-network-from-seven...

plopilop 4y ago
A real, complete comparison is impossible as the two systems are fundamentally different and too complicated. What I like with that comparison is remains very simple. If you'd scale BTC to the amount of tx operated by VISA/MC, you'd need around 50% of the world electricity, which is clearly more than what Visa takes. Also it's a comparison of the fundamental part of the exchange, i.e. the authority checking for the authorization (visa or the miner). If we incorporate the lightning network, then we must also take into account the electricity to run the servers for the intermediate exchanges etc. On the other hand, one could also lower the fiat electricity cost by factoring in the cash transactions. TBH i'd be interested to see a reasonable estimation of the BTC+lightning emission costs per transaction, I'll admit I have no idea how much lightning brings the cost down.
- scottiebarnes 4y ago
  > If you'd scale BTC to the amount of tx operated by VISA/MC, you'd need around 50% of the world electricity Well, it doesn't make sense to scale the main chain in that sort of way, because you'd be looking at blocks the size of several terabytes in order to fit in global scale transactions. And so running a node would then require you to basically run a data center, which wouldn't make the system decentralized at all. Electricity for mining is also not directly related to transaction throughput. Mining is the arbitrage of bitcoin price and electricity/mining hardware cost. The system technically does not need more electricity to secure the same amount of transactions. What happens is when bitcoin's price goes up, so does that arbitrage value, giving mining a profit incentive.