3 ms·

I agree with what you’re saying, at the thresholds of math (and even quite a bit before) it gets very murky very quickly, But I think in this context he may ha

I agree with what you’re saying, at the thresholds of math (and even quite a bit before) it gets very murky very quickly, But I think in this context he may have been better to say “arithmetic” or maybe root logical operations, because he was trying to convey small axiomatic units of universal truth rather than pull an entire field “into purity” I could say the same about his comment about Carbon, the exact mass of carbon we use is influenced by isotopes and is not exactly standardised in all human chemistry - so it’s likely the aliens idea of “the mass of carbon” would also be slightly different. A better example would be “the atomic number of carbon” which is always the same because it’s definitional and integer, but the same point is there - he’s conveying the existence of the tiny axioms (alien truths), not trying to define them

TuringTest 4y ago
> But I think in this context he may have been better to say “arithmetic” or maybe root logical operations, because he was trying to convey small axiomatic units of universal truth rather than pull an entire field “into purity” What makes you think that arithmetic and logic are universal? A culture with a completely different way of thinking may not arrive to a system similar to our mathematics based on logical reasoning and search of consistency. Heck, we can see it in a lot of human beings who are not capable of consistent logical reasoning, and they're not even alien.
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  > Heck, we can see it in a lot of human beings who are not capable of consistent logical reasoning, and they're not even alien. All humans share this flaw (if it is a flaw). Not just some. We all do. It’s part of what makes us human—we have emotions that for better or worse transcend logic and reasoning. In fact I could maybe argue that emotion is an important part of logic and reasoning. Emotion leads to skepticism and thinking outside the box. Both traits are needed to advance our understanding of the world.
- malux85 4y ago
  I was thinking of simple arithmetic like addition and simple logical operations like “and” and “or” I was illustrating the existence of these things - like PG was doing in the article - not attempting to define them
  - TuringTest 4y ago
    Yes, but these things exist because our brains reason this way, not because they are constants of nature. Other intelligent beings could have different non-symbolic ways of gathering and processing information about nature, such as evolving cellular automata adequate to represent and solve problems.

TuringTest 4y ago

> But I think in this context he may have been better to say “arithmetic” or maybe root logical operations, because he was trying to convey small axiomatic units of universal truth rather than pull an entire field “into purity” What makes you think that arithmetic and logic are universal? A culture with a completely different way of thinking may not arrive to a system similar to our mathematics based on logical reasoning and search of consistency. Heck, we can see it in a lot of human beings who are not capable of consistent logical reasoning, and they're not even alien.

spookthesunset 4y ago
> Heck, we can see it in a lot of human beings who are not capable of consistent logical reasoning, and they're not even alien. All humans share this flaw (if it is a flaw). Not just some. We all do. It’s part of what makes us human—we have emotions that for better or worse transcend logic and reasoning. In fact I could maybe argue that emotion is an important part of logic and reasoning. Emotion leads to skepticism and thinking outside the box. Both traits are needed to advance our understanding of the world.
malux85 4y ago
I was thinking of simple arithmetic like addition and simple logical operations like “and” and “or” I was illustrating the existence of these things - like PG was doing in the article - not attempting to define them
- TuringTest 4y ago
  Yes, but these things exist because our brains reason this way, not because they are constants of nature. Other intelligent beings could have different non-symbolic ways of gathering and processing information about nature, such as evolving cellular automata adequate to represent and solve problems.