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Personally I think the concept of growth is a scam to get people to work harder for less. You can certainly grow your skill set, but intelligent people can rise

Personally I think the concept of growth is a scam to get people to work harder for less. You can certainly grow your skill set, but intelligent people can rise to the occasion in most jobs. Including CEO/Director/High level decision making jobs. Everytime I have received some insultingly low offer from a startup, they start talking about "growth", "what I can own", "wearing many hats". Meanwhile, the founder is sitting on some 40% equity grant.

beckingz 4y ago
It's a scam but sometimes it pays off.
conductr 4y ago
This is mostly true for IC roles. Politics of the company are learned and are increasingly important beyond that point. People generally need to learn how to influence and how to whip votes for certain objectives to become a priority or receive budget dollars. Being smart might help but isn’t always a solution but having a mentor in the process or having been coached through similar activities can be a big help. They also generally need to learn how to lead/grow/manage a team of IC's and eventually team of managers as part of their responsibilities. Even smart people are usually born without that ability. Some people have a head start if they have taken leadership roles elsewhere in their life. YMMV but this is applies to most corporate cultures that I have experienced over my career.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Yes, my biggest problem with how promotion processes work at big companies is this. How you're supposed to perform at your currently level is pretty well spelled out by your manager - exactly what your expectations are, etc. However, you're supposed to perform at the "next level" prior to being promoted. Expectations are less clear here. This leads to you doing a lot of things you think will get you a promotion (most of which is very valuable to the company). However, it gives the company an easy opportunity to say - oh, all that extra work you did was great and much appreciated it - but that is not "next level" work. No promotion. Try again next time. Also, no, we won't tell you what will get you promoted. Keep guessing. Hopefully you guess better next time. Sorry for your loss and our gain. Goodbye. It is orders of magnitude easier to just get hired at the next level at a competing company. And, on top of that, you'll likely get paid much more, too.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  successfully get someone to agree with your performance at current job: 5% raise and more than 5% more responsibility successfully get another job: 30% raise and no increase in responsibility anybody married to their current management is contributing to the wage gap
- electrondood 4y ago
  If a company won't promote me, and I'm clearly exceeding the standard for the next role, I take that experience, and describe myself as that level on my resume for the next job. Seriously. If you're doing the job, you're doing the job even if they won't officially give you the title.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Do you put down "staff engineer" if you're not officially a staff engineer?
    - devoutsalsa 4y ago
      Titles don’t mean much. I used to be a “Test Associate” and put “QA Engineer” on my resume. Whenever I get a title like Software Engineer IV, I just put Sr. Software Engineer on my resume. If I was leading a team as a developer, I’d have no problem calling myself Lead Developer, regardless of what my title was. As long as your experience maps to what you’re selling yourself as, there shouldn’t be much of a problem. The only time I’d be mildly concerned would be in reference checks and background checks. I just tell my reference what I’ve been calling myself so it’s not a surprise and put my official title in the background check. If your grossly misrepresenting yourself, make it through a subpar interview process, and you manage to get the job, you’ll simply be miserable & stressed out because your underperforming & worried about getting fired.
    - electrondood 4y ago
      If you're meeting or exceeding the company's criteria for that position, absolutely.
  - 4y ago
yalogin 4y ago
A startup job offer scam is different from actual growth in a job. Depends on the company of course but many are ok if people are comfortable in their jobs and are delivering as expected. That is an accepted state of mind to be in.
Gareth321 4y ago
> Personally I think the concept of growth is a scam to get people to work harder for less. I've certainly seen this employed as a way to argue against wage increases. "If we're going to pay you 15% more, how are you going to add 15% more value?" Sadly this rhetoric often works on people because it sounds so obviously intuitive at first. Thing is, jobs can become more valuable even if they're exactly the same, and the employee provides exactly the same input from day to day. The market decides the value of a job.
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  "Easy. I've been working at 50% because of the s*t pay anyway." Jokes aside, if someone tries such manoeuvres it might be time to reevaluate if 15% is enough to stay.
- neon_electro 4y ago
  >"If we're going to pay you 15% more, how are you going to add 15% more value?" This quote assumes that the employer refuses to acknowledge the employee adds more value than what their compensation represents. I'm always of the mind that my value to my employer is 1.5-2x what I'm actually getting paid, at the low end. Asking for more money is simply trying to better negotiate the way I'm compensated for the value I'm already delivering. If my employer fails to recognize that, I've learned no amount of loyalty to the employer or flexibility to try to do more can change that.
  - tstrimple 4y ago
    This is why it's important for folks to understand exactly what they are contributing to a company's bottom line. This is easier for sales roles where they can point to closed deals, but more difficult for IT roles who's job is to keep the lights on.
seanw444 4y ago
It's definitely in the same vein as "you will be paid in experience."
AlwaysRock 4y ago
I dont know. I've taken a few jobs for growth. But I made sure they also benefited me in other ways. Want me to take a really hard role where I'm going to learn and grow a lot? Pay me more than if I was taking a less difficult role with less growth.
FieryTransition 4y ago
Agreed, growth is a vague term, such that you can hide your lack of knowledge of the situation or the person, or it is just straight exploitation sprinkled with bs
121789 4y ago
They are not necessarily wrong. The most straightforward way to grow into the role you want (e.g. a manager) is to get direct experience doing the job. For example, if you wanted to get a manager role at a FAANG-type of company, you could: 1. Get a role as a junior developer at a FAANG, get 2+ promotions, hope your team has enough scope and resources to let you try out manager duties 2. Get a role as a junior developer at a growing company, be quickly forced into manager duties, then transfer into FAANG True, some places will use this to their advantage to underpay you, but you should be aware of it as a tool in your career.

beckingz 4y ago

It's a scam but sometimes it pays off.

conductr 4y ago

This is mostly true for IC roles. Politics of the company are learned and are increasingly important beyond that point. People generally need to learn how to influence and how to whip votes for certain objectives to become a priority or receive budget dollars. Being smart might help but isn’t always a solution but having a mentor in the process or having been coached through similar activities can be a big help. They also generally need to learn how to lead/grow/manage a team of IC's and eventually team of managers as part of their responsibilities. Even smart people are usually born without that ability. Some people have a head start if they have taken leadership roles elsewhere in their life. YMMV but this is applies to most corporate cultures that I have experienced over my career.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

Yes, my biggest problem with how promotion processes work at big companies is this. How you're supposed to perform at your currently level is pretty well spelled out by your manager - exactly what your expectations are, etc. However, you're supposed to perform at the "next level" prior to being promoted. Expectations are less clear here. This leads to you doing a lot of things you think will get you a promotion (most of which is very valuable to the company). However, it gives the company an easy opportunity to say - oh, all that extra work you did was great and much appreciated it - but that is not "next level" work. No promotion. Try again next time. Also, no, we won't tell you what will get you promoted. Keep guessing. Hopefully you guess better next time. Sorry for your loss and our gain. Goodbye. It is orders of magnitude easier to just get hired at the next level at a competing company. And, on top of that, you'll likely get paid much more, too.

yieldcrv 4y ago
successfully get someone to agree with your performance at current job: 5% raise and more than 5% more responsibility successfully get another job: 30% raise and no increase in responsibility anybody married to their current management is contributing to the wage gap
electrondood 4y ago
If a company won't promote me, and I'm clearly exceeding the standard for the next role, I take that experience, and describe myself as that level on my resume for the next job. Seriously. If you're doing the job, you're doing the job even if they won't officially give you the title.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Do you put down "staff engineer" if you're not officially a staff engineer?
  - devoutsalsa 4y ago
    Titles don’t mean much. I used to be a “Test Associate” and put “QA Engineer” on my resume. Whenever I get a title like Software Engineer IV, I just put Sr. Software Engineer on my resume. If I was leading a team as a developer, I’d have no problem calling myself Lead Developer, regardless of what my title was. As long as your experience maps to what you’re selling yourself as, there shouldn’t be much of a problem. The only time I’d be mildly concerned would be in reference checks and background checks. I just tell my reference what I’ve been calling myself so it’s not a surprise and put my official title in the background check. If your grossly misrepresenting yourself, make it through a subpar interview process, and you manage to get the job, you’ll simply be miserable & stressed out because your underperforming & worried about getting fired.
  - electrondood 4y ago
    If you're meeting or exceeding the company's criteria for that position, absolutely.
- 4y ago

yalogin 4y ago

A startup job offer scam is different from actual growth in a job. Depends on the company of course but many are ok if people are comfortable in their jobs and are delivering as expected. That is an accepted state of mind to be in.

Gareth321 4y ago

> Personally I think the concept of growth is a scam to get people to work harder for less. I've certainly seen this employed as a way to argue against wage increases. "If we're going to pay you 15% more, how are you going to add 15% more value?" Sadly this rhetoric often works on people because it sounds so obviously intuitive at first. Thing is, jobs can become more valuable even if they're exactly the same, and the employee provides exactly the same input from day to day. The market decides the value of a job.

bornfreddy 4y ago
"Easy. I've been working at 50% because of the s*t pay anyway." Jokes aside, if someone tries such manoeuvres it might be time to reevaluate if 15% is enough to stay.
neon_electro 4y ago
>"If we're going to pay you 15% more, how are you going to add 15% more value?" This quote assumes that the employer refuses to acknowledge the employee adds more value than what their compensation represents. I'm always of the mind that my value to my employer is 1.5-2x what I'm actually getting paid, at the low end. Asking for more money is simply trying to better negotiate the way I'm compensated for the value I'm already delivering. If my employer fails to recognize that, I've learned no amount of loyalty to the employer or flexibility to try to do more can change that.
- tstrimple 4y ago
  This is why it's important for folks to understand exactly what they are contributing to a company's bottom line. This is easier for sales roles where they can point to closed deals, but more difficult for IT roles who's job is to keep the lights on.

seanw444 4y ago

It's definitely in the same vein as "you will be paid in experience."

AlwaysRock 4y ago

I dont know. I've taken a few jobs for growth. But I made sure they also benefited me in other ways. Want me to take a really hard role where I'm going to learn and grow a lot? Pay me more than if I was taking a less difficult role with less growth.

FieryTransition 4y ago

Agreed, growth is a vague term, such that you can hide your lack of knowledge of the situation or the person, or it is just straight exploitation sprinkled with bs

121789 4y ago

They are not necessarily wrong. The most straightforward way to grow into the role you want (e.g. a manager) is to get direct experience doing the job. For example, if you wanted to get a manager role at a FAANG-type of company, you could: 1. Get a role as a junior developer at a FAANG, get 2+ promotions, hope your team has enough scope and resources to let you try out manager duties 2. Get a role as a junior developer at a growing company, be quickly forced into manager duties, then transfer into FAANG True, some places will use this to their advantage to underpay you, but you should be aware of it as a tool in your career.