4 ms·

If I really needed another reason not to visit a totalitarian, human rights-violations, murderous, anti-gay dictatorship to watch someone play football, this mi

If I really needed another reason not to visit a totalitarian, human rights-violations, murderous, anti-gay dictatorship to watch someone play football, this might move the needle. But really, I’m way past that already and I would hope that most other civilized people are as well.

sph 4y ago
The media world and big business in general isn't civilized people. It is composed of, but the business itself couldn't give a rat's arse about not going to humanitarian shit hole if said places had a ton of money to spend and cared about generating a ton of positive PR. I don't watch football but I follow Formula 1 and we have the exact same issues. There's plans in closing historic F1 races while we're now expanding in totalitarian regimes, like Saudi Arabia, where last year a missile fell miles from the circuit during free practice. These totalitarian, humanitarian shit holes have a ton of money, and money wins over any moral qualms. And no, I will not refrain from calling these like places like that. Of course, I refer to their governments and religious institutions, not the average person that are powerless to institute some change.
erenyeager 4y ago
Well how can you say much about a place without visiting? These descriptions can be used for so called “civilized” places. Especially Western countries not even standing by these “civilized” values shows a lot where their hearts are. They’d rather kill millions, exploit economic conditions, and pontificate about ideals they don’t even act in accordance with. It’s propaganda you’ve been fed to assume the rhetoric of civilized vs uncivilized. Really every place has barbarism, some hidden behind arrogance, it seems.
- sidlls 4y ago
  Every place has barbarism. But the kind and degree matter. There isn’t an equivalence between what, say, China or Qatar are like and the (terrible) practices of, say, the US. And even if there were, tu quoque doesn’t add anything to the discussion.
  - erenyeager 4y ago
    It does matter when people believe and think (out of nationalism, ethnocentrism) that they’re in the paragon of virtue and civilization while everyone else is some backwards people entrapped in darkness… Anyways you can be critical of a place without being arrogant of your own position. Most people writing here about Qatar act as if their own countrymen are amazing when they probably haven’t even visited the middle East! Pure pontification, and no open-mindedness to seeing a holistic view. It dilutes the valid criticisms when people speak out of ignorance.
    - sidlls 4y ago
      Even if “most people” were doing what you claim (they don’t), no it absolutely would not matter. Comments like yours are simply attempts to deflect or mitigate criticism with spurious argumentation.
- piva00 4y ago
  There is a very large gap in degree of barbarism between Qatar and Sweden, for example. It's a false equivalence to say that because barbaric attitudes exist everywhere that they are equivalent. Also, in 2022 with so much information available about most things I shouldn't be required to travel to every single country to have an actual informed opinion about the place. I definitely don't need to visit Russia to have a basic grasp on its society. I can just read some books, essays, articles and have at least a basic understanding of it, which will then inform me to visit it or not. Or do I need to visit North Korea to be able to say it's a fucked up place and recommend someone to not consider visiting it?
  - erenyeager 4y ago
    Perhaps an open mind can observe and receive with grace, to see a more whole picture. Every place has something to teach us, something we can learn. There’s a lot of prejudice and distortion to work beyond, so curiosity does us well. There are some things you must experience to understand. I think to write off a place completely for largely inflated reasons is missing this. Even if you disagree with the administration of a place, you can meet a lot of people who may change your life for the better. don’t let ignorance cut you off from growth
    - piva00 4y ago
      Of course that every place can have beautiful people and encounters but spraying this toxic positivity around places which are morally questionable doesn't really help much. I can go to beautiful places, with friendly people and lots of amazing nature and food. Some of these places I can also be murdered. Or the government of some of these places can take me away for no reason other than ransom due to some geopolitical issue that I have nothing to do with. It's not ignorance to be informed about the general feeling of a society and then be able to judge myself if visiting said place, transferring my money to those regimes, is something that I can morally support. Visiting Qatar, Saudi Arabia and so on is not something my morality can support. I'm not judging the civility or not of those societies but I can choose to support those regimes with my money. Amazing people exist everywhere, I'm free to choose to not go to places that I know don't align with my morals. And please, don't patronise me about growth by traveling, I have traveled well enough to know what beautiful encounters can happen. I've also traveled enough to not carry a toxic positivity that everywhere is amazing and should be visited, no, there are places where I won't ever visit again. You also forget that there are experiences that can change you forever for the worse, like a friend of mine who had her husband murdered in Mexico. Or my friends back in Brazil (where I'm originally from) who also have horrible experiences with meeting people when traveling in the country. It's an absurd naivete to assume that visiting places can always provide you with beautiful and engradising experiences.
sremani 4y ago
Do not forget most of the labor for those Stadiums is bonded-labor/slave labor from Indian sub-continent.

sph 4y ago

The media world and big business in general isn't civilized people. It is composed of, but the business itself couldn't give a rat's arse about not going to humanitarian shit hole if said places had a ton of money to spend and cared about generating a ton of positive PR. I don't watch football but I follow Formula 1 and we have the exact same issues. There's plans in closing historic F1 races while we're now expanding in totalitarian regimes, like Saudi Arabia, where last year a missile fell miles from the circuit during free practice. These totalitarian, humanitarian shit holes have a ton of money, and money wins over any moral qualms. And no, I will not refrain from calling these like places like that. Of course, I refer to their governments and religious institutions, not the average person that are powerless to institute some change.

erenyeager 4y ago

Well how can you say much about a place without visiting? These descriptions can be used for so called “civilized” places. Especially Western countries not even standing by these “civilized” values shows a lot where their hearts are. They’d rather kill millions, exploit economic conditions, and pontificate about ideals they don’t even act in accordance with. It’s propaganda you’ve been fed to assume the rhetoric of civilized vs uncivilized. Really every place has barbarism, some hidden behind arrogance, it seems.

sidlls 4y ago
Every place has barbarism. But the kind and degree matter. There isn’t an equivalence between what, say, China or Qatar are like and the (terrible) practices of, say, the US. And even if there were, tu quoque doesn’t add anything to the discussion.
- erenyeager 4y ago
  It does matter when people believe and think (out of nationalism, ethnocentrism) that they’re in the paragon of virtue and civilization while everyone else is some backwards people entrapped in darkness… Anyways you can be critical of a place without being arrogant of your own position. Most people writing here about Qatar act as if their own countrymen are amazing when they probably haven’t even visited the middle East! Pure pontification, and no open-mindedness to seeing a holistic view. It dilutes the valid criticisms when people speak out of ignorance.
  - sidlls 4y ago
    Even if “most people” were doing what you claim (they don’t), no it absolutely would not matter. Comments like yours are simply attempts to deflect or mitigate criticism with spurious argumentation.
piva00 4y ago
There is a very large gap in degree of barbarism between Qatar and Sweden, for example. It's a false equivalence to say that because barbaric attitudes exist everywhere that they are equivalent. Also, in 2022 with so much information available about most things I shouldn't be required to travel to every single country to have an actual informed opinion about the place. I definitely don't need to visit Russia to have a basic grasp on its society. I can just read some books, essays, articles and have at least a basic understanding of it, which will then inform me to visit it or not. Or do I need to visit North Korea to be able to say it's a fucked up place and recommend someone to not consider visiting it?
- erenyeager 4y ago
  Perhaps an open mind can observe and receive with grace, to see a more whole picture. Every place has something to teach us, something we can learn. There’s a lot of prejudice and distortion to work beyond, so curiosity does us well. There are some things you must experience to understand. I think to write off a place completely for largely inflated reasons is missing this. Even if you disagree with the administration of a place, you can meet a lot of people who may change your life for the better. don’t let ignorance cut you off from growth
  - piva00 4y ago
    Of course that every place can have beautiful people and encounters but spraying this toxic positivity around places which are morally questionable doesn't really help much. I can go to beautiful places, with friendly people and lots of amazing nature and food. Some of these places I can also be murdered. Or the government of some of these places can take me away for no reason other than ransom due to some geopolitical issue that I have nothing to do with. It's not ignorance to be informed about the general feeling of a society and then be able to judge myself if visiting said place, transferring my money to those regimes, is something that I can morally support. Visiting Qatar, Saudi Arabia and so on is not something my morality can support. I'm not judging the civility or not of those societies but I can choose to support those regimes with my money. Amazing people exist everywhere, I'm free to choose to not go to places that I know don't align with my morals. And please, don't patronise me about growth by traveling, I have traveled well enough to know what beautiful encounters can happen. I've also traveled enough to not carry a toxic positivity that everywhere is amazing and should be visited, no, there are places where I won't ever visit again. You also forget that there are experiences that can change you forever for the worse, like a friend of mine who had her husband murdered in Mexico. Or my friends back in Brazil (where I'm originally from) who also have horrible experiences with meeting people when traveling in the country. It's an absurd naivete to assume that visiting places can always provide you with beautiful and engradising experiences.

sremani 4y ago

Do not forget most of the labor for those Stadiums is bonded-labor/slave labor from Indian sub-continent.