5 ms·

DUV seems to be economical down to about 7nm though.

kuschku 4y ago
From what Intel put out in marketing materials, even at 14nm they had a very unreliable process with DUV. So, it might not be economical for the type of IC produced in these factories.
- sylware 4y ago
  So it means that chinese SMIC announced '7nm' implies they have EUV working?
  - Sakos 4y ago
    No, they don't have EUV. They have 7nm which they're doing with DUV, but they're hitting the same issues Intel did with abysmal yields and there's no guarantee that SMIC will be able to solve something Intel was never able to.
    - sylware 4y ago
      ... unless they jump onto the EUV train. That said heard that japan may come back as a top-notch silicium country with... nanoimprint?!
      - ohazi 4y ago
        They're sanctioned, they can't just "jump"
        sylware 4y ago
        come on... ofc they would have to do the whole R&D.
    - kamaal 4y ago
      They do have EUV machines, albeit unreliable. Like you yourself mentioned the yields are the problem here. This is really more of an engineering problem, you need more cycles for quality and reliability. But it's not something unsurmountable. Intel had no reason to try hard enough, Intel is never going to get sanctioned. 'Necessity is the mother of all innovation' might come to play here. If it comes down to living vs dying, people go to no ends to make things happen.
      - sc0ttyd 4y ago
        Source? I've not seen anything _anywhere_ about anyone other than ASML producing EUV lithography tools. DUV yes, but not EUV
  - me_me_me 4y ago
    I am announcing 1nm chip rihht here right now! Trust me I wouldn't lie. The nm measure is a marketing tool. Intel nm is 'larger' because they were measuring gates differently. I only take nm claims as comparison of products of same company.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  TSMC (and Intel) use DUV for their 7nm. TSMC's DUV 7 processes are reportedly very good. And I thought Intel's 14 was good too (after some ramping), which is why they stayed on it and iterated on it for so long, it was the 10nm process they had so much trouble with and the problems there are not generally reported to be with lithography but materials (cobalt, among other things, which they dropped in later nodes). So I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. DUV has _proven_ to be economical down to about 7nm.

From what Intel put out in marketing materials, even at 14nm they had a very unreliable process with DUV. So, it might not be economical for the type of IC produced in these factories.

sylware 4y ago
So it means that chinese SMIC announced '7nm' implies they have EUV working?
- Sakos 4y ago
  No, they don't have EUV. They have 7nm which they're doing with DUV, but they're hitting the same issues Intel did with abysmal yields and there's no guarantee that SMIC will be able to solve something Intel was never able to.
  - sylware 4y ago
    ... unless they jump onto the EUV train. That said heard that japan may come back as a top-notch silicium country with... nanoimprint?!
    - ohazi 4y ago
      They're sanctioned, they can't just "jump"
      - sylware 4y ago
        come on... ofc they would have to do the whole R&D.
  - kamaal 4y ago
    They do have EUV machines, albeit unreliable. Like you yourself mentioned the yields are the problem here. This is really more of an engineering problem, you need more cycles for quality and reliability. But it's not something unsurmountable. Intel had no reason to try hard enough, Intel is never going to get sanctioned. 'Necessity is the mother of all innovation' might come to play here. If it comes down to living vs dying, people go to no ends to make things happen.
    - sc0ttyd 4y ago
      Source? I've not seen anything _anywhere_ about anyone other than ASML producing EUV lithography tools. DUV yes, but not EUV
- me_me_me 4y ago
  I am announcing 1nm chip rihht here right now! Trust me I wouldn't lie. The nm measure is a marketing tool. Intel nm is 'larger' because they were measuring gates differently. I only take nm claims as comparison of products of same company.
throwawaylinux 4y ago
TSMC (and Intel) use DUV for their 7nm. TSMC's DUV 7 processes are reportedly very good. And I thought Intel's 14 was good too (after some ramping), which is why they stayed on it and iterated on it for so long, it was the 10nm process they had so much trouble with and the problems there are not generally reported to be with lithography but materials (cobalt, among other things, which they dropped in later nodes). So I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. DUV has _proven_ to be economical down to about 7nm.