2 ms·

Counting implies the ability to perceive the discrete, but such discreteness may not be obvious to a shapeless creature living in a liquid or a gaseous substan

Counting implies the ability to perceive the discrete, but such discreteness may not be obvious to a shapeless creature living in a liquid or a gaseous substance.

dagw 4y ago
Most mathematical concepts are far from obvious to humans (lots of people seem to struggle with the continuum hypothesis for example), yet we can still work with them no problem. So even if this shapeless intelligent creature didn't start with discrete mathematics, they'd probably invent it eventually.
naasking 4y ago
> Counting implies the ability to perceive the discrete, but such discreteness may not be obvious to a shapeless creature living in a liquid or a gaseous substance. Is a shapeless creature even logically coherent? Intelligence needed for math requires making distinctions, and distinctions imply structure, and structure is logically incompatible with true "shapelessness".
- caleb-allen 4y ago
  > Is a shapeless creature even logically coherent? Do you see how your argument is self-defeating? According to logic that humans have developed, there is such thing as a "shape". But Western philosophers have pondered the innateness of a "shape" or an "object" from very early on (Plato, through Leibniz, beyond). "Shape" and "logic" are both human constructs articulating "structure", another human construct. A shapeless creature doesn't need to be "logically coherent" to exhibit intelligence; logic, truth, and structure are features that have emerged from human intelligence. I wouldn't accept the argument that an entity must exhibit the same features to qualify as intelligent simply because humans have.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > According to logic that humans have developed, there is such thing as a "shape" There is such a thing as "structure", of which "shape" is an instance, yes. > "Shape" and "logic" are both human constructs articulating "structure", another human construct. Structure is not a human concept. We have particular conceptions of structure, but structure exists, period. 0 != 1, they have different structure. This is indisputable. > A shapeless creature doesn't need to be "logically coherent" to exhibit intelligence If you think that reality does not have to be logically coherent, or that that does not necessarily imply that any creatures within reality have to have a logically coherent description consistent with coherent natural laws, then you're talking about a fantasy world of your imagination and I don't think there's anything further to discuss.
criddell 4y ago
If we can conceive of shapeless blobs living in a liquid then surely they can conceive of being like us.

Counting implies the ability to perceive the discrete, but such discreteness may not be obvious to a shapeless creature living in a liquid or a gaseous substance.

dagw 4y ago

Most mathematical concepts are far from obvious to humans (lots of people seem to struggle with the continuum hypothesis for example), yet we can still work with them no problem. So even if this shapeless intelligent creature didn't start with discrete mathematics, they'd probably invent it eventually.

naasking 4y ago

> Counting implies the ability to perceive the discrete, but such discreteness may not be obvious to a shapeless creature living in a liquid or a gaseous substance. Is a shapeless creature even logically coherent? Intelligence needed for math requires making distinctions, and distinctions imply structure, and structure is logically incompatible with true "shapelessness".

caleb-allen 4y ago
> Is a shapeless creature even logically coherent? Do you see how your argument is self-defeating? According to logic that humans have developed, there is such thing as a "shape". But Western philosophers have pondered the innateness of a "shape" or an "object" from very early on (Plato, through Leibniz, beyond). "Shape" and "logic" are both human constructs articulating "structure", another human construct. A shapeless creature doesn't need to be "logically coherent" to exhibit intelligence; logic, truth, and structure are features that have emerged from human intelligence. I wouldn't accept the argument that an entity must exhibit the same features to qualify as intelligent simply because humans have.
- naasking 4y ago
  > According to logic that humans have developed, there is such thing as a "shape" There is such a thing as "structure", of which "shape" is an instance, yes. > "Shape" and "logic" are both human constructs articulating "structure", another human construct. Structure is not a human concept. We have particular conceptions of structure, but structure exists, period. 0 != 1, they have different structure. This is indisputable. > A shapeless creature doesn't need to be "logically coherent" to exhibit intelligence If you think that reality does not have to be logically coherent, or that that does not necessarily imply that any creatures within reality have to have a logically coherent description consistent with coherent natural laws, then you're talking about a fantasy world of your imagination and I don't think there's anything further to discuss.

criddell 4y ago

If we can conceive of shapeless blobs living in a liquid then surely they can conceive of being like us.