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"The plant will produce 22-nanometer and 28-nanometer chips to address strong global demand for speciality chip technologies, they said" I'm curious why not th

"The plant will produce 22-nanometer and 28-nanometer chips to address strong global demand for speciality chip technologies, they said" I'm curious why not the latest - 3nm, 5nm

detaro 4y ago
There is no spare capacity to build highest-end process fabs, and there is huge demand for capacity in 22/28nm too.
- sylware 4y ago
  "spare capacity" ? what do you mean ? Taiwan and South Korea are enough to supply the world demand? Well, it is still hard to get your hands on top-notch chips at a reasonable price whatever the news is saying...
  - kuschku 4y ago
    You need certain machines for EUV. There's only one manufacturer (ASML) for those, and they're at capacity. And even if they wanted to scale up, there's only one manufacturer (Zeiss) for the EUV mirrors required for those machines, and all their capacity for the next years is already bought as well.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      DUV seems to be economical down to about 7nm though.
      - kuschku 4y ago
        From what Intel put out in marketing materials, even at 14nm they had a very unreliable process with DUV. So, it might not be economical for the type of IC produced in these factories.
        sylware 4y ago
        So it means that chinese SMIC announced '7nm' implies they have EUV working?
        Sakos 4y ago
        No, they don't have EUV. They have 7nm which they're doing with DUV, but they're hitting the same issues Intel did with abysmal yields and there's no guarantee that SMIC will be able to solve something Intel was never able to.
        sylware 4y ago
        ... unless they jump onto the EUV train. That said heard that japan may come back as a top-notch silicium country with... nanoimprint?!
        ohazi 4y ago
        They're sanctioned, they can't just "jump"
        sylware 4y ago
        come on... ofc they would have to do the whole R&D.
        kamaal 4y ago
        They do have EUV machines, albeit unreliable. Like you yourself mentioned the yields are the problem here. This is really more of an engineering problem, you need more cycles for quality and reliability. But it's not something unsurmountable. Intel had no reason to try hard enough, Intel is never going to get sanctioned. 'Necessity is the mother of all innovation' might come to play here. If it comes down to living vs dying, people go to no ends to make things happen.
        sc0ttyd 4y ago
    - terminalcommand 4y ago
      Why can't ASML scale up? I don't understand this. I think because they are a monopoly they can work slower, they don't need the extra profits.
      - xxpor 4y ago
        ASML is (now) a company everyone has heard of, but like GP hinted at with their Zeiss comment, their supply chain is crazy deep as well. Getting everything scaled up across companies and countries is far from trivial.
        terminalcommand 4y ago
        That's true, but this is one of the most important techs we have. From the recent news, I see that TSMC wants ASML to scale up as well. TSMC announced that it will cut its capital expenditure by 10% due to supply problems. This announcement tanked ASML's share price. My comment is that ASML is hitting their profit targets, they have backlog until 2024. If I were leading ASML or an employee of it, I wouldn't want to scale up. I am already hitting my targets, it's cozy, I have backlog until 2024, I have no competition. The current situation is good for ASML and bad for us. My comment is equally applicable for all companies in the supply chain that are monopolies.
        snovv_crash 4y ago
        Apparently ASML's internal processes are a mess, with everything consistently blocked by technical debt. I suspect this is the biggest blocker to their ability to scale their production faster.
        achenet 4y ago
        this makes me wish I were like the Harvey Keitel character in Pulp Fiction, so I could straighten my tie, say "I'm on it", and hop into my vintage Mercedes convertible to go fix it.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    > Well, it is still hard to get your hands on top-notch chips at a reasonable price whatever the news is saying... it's really not and actually the slowdown is so bad that AMD has had to reduce production, as well as other companies reducing memory/flash wafer starts etc. it's not just intel or fake news, availability really hasn't been a problem for a year or more at this point, and if anything we're starting to shift into the "glut" phase of the bullwhip cycle.
    - reportingsjr 4y ago
      It depends on what you're looking at. I develop electronics hardware, and it is still incredibly difficult to get a lot of ICs. Texas instruments still has not caught up, and their chips are used just about everything, including on graphics cards.
      - paulmd 4y ago
        yeah that's fair, the embedded market (both power, microcontrollers, and others) is still fucked up, but, the leading-edge market is in oversupply at this point and companies are starting to pull back production hard.
svnt 4y ago
They may be preparing to do both, and in both the US and Japan. Their statement is then technically true and does not upset the mainland.
AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
To produce 3nm and 5nm, you need to order fabs from ASML who has an enormous backlog.. On the other hand, 22nm and 28nm are almost 10 year old technologies and they are still used in cars, so much so that the industry is begging car manufacturers to get to newer nodes [1]. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/19/chip_manufacturer_chips/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/19/chip_manufacturer_chi...
dr-detroit 4y ago
bluGill 4y ago
Good enough. There is nothing wrong with existing parts and so why spend money to design new ones. Inflation is bad enough without having to pay for new engineering as well
xadhominemx 4y ago
Japanese customers like Sony and Renesas have growing demand on 22/28nm
blihp 4y ago
Cost... both to design for the node and to manufacture on it. A lot of products don't need the latest and greatest process node, they just need economical capacity.
deqwer 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bouncycastle 4y ago
Because Moore's Law has stopped at 28nm. https://www.eetimes.com/28nm-was-last-node-of-moores-law/ https://www.eetimes.com/28nm-was-last-node-of-moores-law/
Balgair 4y ago
National security. TSMC is one of the key players in the 21st century. As we've seen with the supply chain issues from covid and the Ukrainian conflict, high quality semiconductors are a vital resource for modern nations' security and economies. TSMC is the only entity that can make the highest quality chips (3nm being not actually 3nm, but just called that way for marketing purposes). If Taiwan looses that unique ability, they then loose much of the backing of NATO-aligned nations. Taiwan bet the whole nation on TSMC, and it's paid off thus far. They're not likely to let go the trump cards they hold. More on the issues with Taiwan and China here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6sCsOdqXQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6sCsOdqXQw
- steve_taylor 4y ago
  That’s quite the gamble. If a competitor develops a 5nm capability, Taiwan and TSMC are both screwed. The fact that only TSMC in Taiwan has this capability makes Taiwan a jucier target for the CCP. All this talk of reunification may be little more than a power grab. Control the best semiconductors, control the world.
  - porknubbins 4y ago
    What is TSMC/Taiwan’s unique capability? Aren’t ASML in Europe the ones making cutting edge EUV machines that drive process shrinks? I genuinely don’t know but I assume TSMC is mostly just good at scaling the production up economically.
    - daemoens 4y ago
      Doing it economically is still incredibly challenging, and there's a reason why they're so far ahead of everybody else.
    - rasz 4y ago
      Everyone can buy top of the line kitchenware, but you need great cooks to run 5 star restaurant. Its all about tuning to reach good yields, TSMC seems to excel at that.

"The plant will produce 22-nanometer and 28-nanometer chips to address strong global demand for speciality chip technologies, they said" I'm curious why not the latest - 3nm, 5nm

detaro 4y ago

There is no spare capacity to build highest-end process fabs, and there is huge demand for capacity in 22/28nm too.

sylware 4y ago
"spare capacity" ? what do you mean ? Taiwan and South Korea are enough to supply the world demand? Well, it is still hard to get your hands on top-notch chips at a reasonable price whatever the news is saying...
- kuschku 4y ago
  You need certain machines for EUV. There's only one manufacturer (ASML) for those, and they're at capacity. And even if they wanted to scale up, there's only one manufacturer (Zeiss) for the EUV mirrors required for those machines, and all their capacity for the next years is already bought as well.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    DUV seems to be economical down to about 7nm though.
    - kuschku 4y ago
      From what Intel put out in marketing materials, even at 14nm they had a very unreliable process with DUV. So, it might not be economical for the type of IC produced in these factories.
      - sylware 4y ago
        So it means that chinese SMIC announced '7nm' implies they have EUV working?
        Sakos 4y ago
        No, they don't have EUV. They have 7nm which they're doing with DUV, but they're hitting the same issues Intel did with abysmal yields and there's no guarantee that SMIC will be able to solve something Intel was never able to.
        sylware 4y ago
        ... unless they jump onto the EUV train. That said heard that japan may come back as a top-notch silicium country with... nanoimprint?!
        ohazi 4y ago
        They're sanctioned, they can't just "jump"
        sylware 4y ago
        come on... ofc they would have to do the whole R&D.
        kamaal 4y ago
        They do have EUV machines, albeit unreliable. Like you yourself mentioned the yields are the problem here. This is really more of an engineering problem, you need more cycles for quality and reliability. But it's not something unsurmountable. Intel had no reason to try hard enough, Intel is never going to get sanctioned. 'Necessity is the mother of all innovation' might come to play here. If it comes down to living vs dying, people go to no ends to make things happen.
        sc0ttyd 4y ago
  - terminalcommand 4y ago
    Why can't ASML scale up? I don't understand this. I think because they are a monopoly they can work slower, they don't need the extra profits.
    - xxpor 4y ago
      ASML is (now) a company everyone has heard of, but like GP hinted at with their Zeiss comment, their supply chain is crazy deep as well. Getting everything scaled up across companies and countries is far from trivial.
      - terminalcommand 4y ago
        That's true, but this is one of the most important techs we have. From the recent news, I see that TSMC wants ASML to scale up as well. TSMC announced that it will cut its capital expenditure by 10% due to supply problems. This announcement tanked ASML's share price. My comment is that ASML is hitting their profit targets, they have backlog until 2024. If I were leading ASML or an employee of it, I wouldn't want to scale up. I am already hitting my targets, it's cozy, I have backlog until 2024, I have no competition. The current situation is good for ASML and bad for us. My comment is equally applicable for all companies in the supply chain that are monopolies.
        snovv_crash 4y ago
        Apparently ASML's internal processes are a mess, with everything consistently blocked by technical debt. I suspect this is the biggest blocker to their ability to scale their production faster.
        achenet 4y ago
        this makes me wish I were like the Harvey Keitel character in Pulp Fiction, so I could straighten my tie, say "I'm on it", and hop into my vintage Mercedes convertible to go fix it.
- paulmd 4y ago
  > Well, it is still hard to get your hands on top-notch chips at a reasonable price whatever the news is saying... it's really not and actually the slowdown is so bad that AMD has had to reduce production, as well as other companies reducing memory/flash wafer starts etc. it's not just intel or fake news, availability really hasn't been a problem for a year or more at this point, and if anything we're starting to shift into the "glut" phase of the bullwhip cycle.
  - reportingsjr 4y ago
    It depends on what you're looking at. I develop electronics hardware, and it is still incredibly difficult to get a lot of ICs. Texas instruments still has not caught up, and their chips are used just about everything, including on graphics cards.
    - paulmd 4y ago
      yeah that's fair, the embedded market (both power, microcontrollers, and others) is still fucked up, but, the leading-edge market is in oversupply at this point and companies are starting to pull back production hard.

svnt 4y ago

They may be preparing to do both, and in both the US and Japan. Their statement is then technically true and does not upset the mainland.

AlgorithmicTime 4y ago

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

To produce 3nm and 5nm, you need to order fabs from ASML who has an enormous backlog.. On the other hand, 22nm and 28nm are almost 10 year old technologies and they are still used in cars, so much so that the industry is begging car manufacturers to get to newer nodes [1]. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/19/chip_manufacturer_chips/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/19/chip_manufacturer_chi...

dr-detroit 4y ago

bluGill 4y ago

Good enough. There is nothing wrong with existing parts and so why spend money to design new ones. Inflation is bad enough without having to pay for new engineering as well

xadhominemx 4y ago

Japanese customers like Sony and Renesas have growing demand on 22/28nm

blihp 4y ago

Cost... both to design for the node and to manufacture on it. A lot of products don't need the latest and greatest process node, they just need economical capacity.

deqwer 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bouncycastle 4y ago

Because Moore's Law has stopped at 28nm. https://www.eetimes.com/28nm-was-last-node-of-moores-law/ https://www.eetimes.com/28nm-was-last-node-of-moores-law/

Balgair 4y ago

National security. TSMC is one of the key players in the 21st century. As we've seen with the supply chain issues from covid and the Ukrainian conflict, high quality semiconductors are a vital resource for modern nations' security and economies. TSMC is the only entity that can make the highest quality chips (3nm being not actually 3nm, but just called that way for marketing purposes). If Taiwan looses that unique ability, they then loose much of the backing of NATO-aligned nations. Taiwan bet the whole nation on TSMC, and it's paid off thus far. They're not likely to let go the trump cards they hold. More on the issues with Taiwan and China here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6sCsOdqXQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6sCsOdqXQw

steve_taylor 4y ago
That’s quite the gamble. If a competitor develops a 5nm capability, Taiwan and TSMC are both screwed. The fact that only TSMC in Taiwan has this capability makes Taiwan a jucier target for the CCP. All this talk of reunification may be little more than a power grab. Control the best semiconductors, control the world.
- porknubbins 4y ago
  What is TSMC/Taiwan’s unique capability? Aren’t ASML in Europe the ones making cutting edge EUV machines that drive process shrinks? I genuinely don’t know but I assume TSMC is mostly just good at scaling the production up economically.
  - daemoens 4y ago
    Doing it economically is still incredibly challenging, and there's a reason why they're so far ahead of everybody else.
  - rasz 4y ago
    Everyone can buy top of the line kitchenware, but you need great cooks to run 5 star restaurant. Its all about tuning to reach good yields, TSMC seems to excel at that.