3 ms·

But you can get VS Express for free. The only major thing it doesn't have that VS Pro has is the plugin system, which XCode doesn't even have to begin with!

by WayneDB 15y ago

nupark2 15y ago
Xcode provides the functionality you need by default, whereas you need plugins in VS just to get source control. There's also profiling support (not included in VSE), an x86-64 compiler (also not included), etc.
- WayneDB 15y ago
  You get Subversion and Git with Xcode and that's it. Exactly 2 choices. This is simply not a big deal in Windows where SCM can be directly integrated into the graphical file browser!! Furthermore, VS Express can easily be configured to support 64 bit compilation. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1865069/compile-64-bit-app-with-vc-express-2010 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1865069/compile-64-bit-ap...
  - nupark2 15y ago
    > You get Subversion and Git with Xcode and that's it. Exactly 2 choices. Fortunately, those are the only too I need. I agree that Xcode would benefit plugins, but unlike VCE, the Xcode baseline is sufficient for my (and most people's) requirements. > This is simply not a big deal in Windows where SCM can be directly integrated into the graphical file browser!! Working with AVR Studio 5 (Visual Studio-based) and Visual Studio C++, I've found that IDE support for SVN makes a huge difference -- constantly falling back to TortoiseSVN is obtuse, annoying, and time consuming.
- UnFleshedOne 15y ago
  Why do people need IDE source control integration? On windows there is a perfectly good explorer integration, on OSX there is perfectly good command line. Explorer integration on windows beats any IDE integration simply because you don't need to launch IDE with a correct project/workspace just to see if you have local changes or something. Once you have multiple sandboxes of different projects of a decent size, IDE integration doesn't cut it. (and an unrelated rant: how come xcode can't build two completely unrelated projects at once?)
  - nupark2 15y ago
    > Why do people need IDE source control integration? ... So that I can hit cmd-option-C (in Xcode), review my diffs and commit, all in less than ~10 seconds. > Explorer integration on windows beats any IDE integration simply because you don't need to launch IDE with a correct project/workspace just to see if you have local changes or something. Once you have multiple sandboxes of different projects of a decent size, IDE integration doesn't cut it. If I'm working on a project, I'm going to have the IDE running anyway. It sounds like you have a significantly different working model. On OS X I'll fall back to the terminal for VCS without the IDE running, but it's not a replacement for in-IDE VCS.
  - smackfu 15y ago
    I really value being able to see a real time diff vs. the latest version under source control, and to hover over the sidebar gutter to show me the previous code. Check in / check out isn't too valuable, but having add/delete automatically ripple through to source control is nice.
rbanffy 15y ago
Seriously? Are you implying this (http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/express#whatIsExpress http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-ed...) is somehow equivalent to this (http://developer.apple.com/technologies/tools/features.html http://developer.apple.com/technologies/tools/features.html)?
- WayneDB 15y ago
  Exactly which feature do you think can't be had by Windows developers for free? I suppose you could argue that "oh, with Apple I get it all in one package..." Big deal. You also have to buy an overpriced PC to run OS X and you can't even run the OS in a virtual machine via a hyper-visor.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    Having everything integrated into one consistent package is the reason to use an IDE. iOS device emulation and Unix excepted, everything is sort of available from other sources, but, then, how much money would the time to assemble, learn and operate your duct-tape software development stack be worth?
    - WayneDB 15y ago
      Gee, I guess it's worth about $500. The same price you'd have to pay for a mac mini.
      - rbanffy 15y ago
        Xcode can be expensive, but it comes with a nice, free computer.

But you can get VS Express for free. The only major thing it doesn't have that VS Pro has is the plugin system, which XCode doesn't even have to begin with!

by WayneDB 15y ago

But you can get VS Express for free. The only major thing it doesn't have that VS Pro has is the plugin system, which XCode doesn't even have to begin with!

nupark2 15y ago

Xcode provides the functionality you need by default, whereas you need plugins in VS just to get source control. There's also profiling support (not included in VSE), an x86-64 compiler (also not included), etc.

WayneDB 15y ago
You get Subversion and Git with Xcode and that's it. Exactly 2 choices. This is simply not a big deal in Windows where SCM can be directly integrated into the graphical file browser!! Furthermore, VS Express can easily be configured to support 64 bit compilation. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1865069/compile-64-bit-app-with-vc-express-2010 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1865069/compile-64-bit-ap...
- nupark2 15y ago
  > You get Subversion and Git with Xcode and that's it. Exactly 2 choices. Fortunately, those are the only too I need. I agree that Xcode would benefit plugins, but unlike VCE, the Xcode baseline is sufficient for my (and most people's) requirements. > This is simply not a big deal in Windows where SCM can be directly integrated into the graphical file browser!! Working with AVR Studio 5 (Visual Studio-based) and Visual Studio C++, I've found that IDE support for SVN makes a huge difference -- constantly falling back to TortoiseSVN is obtuse, annoying, and time consuming.
UnFleshedOne 15y ago
Why do people need IDE source control integration? On windows there is a perfectly good explorer integration, on OSX there is perfectly good command line. Explorer integration on windows beats any IDE integration simply because you don't need to launch IDE with a correct project/workspace just to see if you have local changes or something. Once you have multiple sandboxes of different projects of a decent size, IDE integration doesn't cut it. (and an unrelated rant: how come xcode can't build two completely unrelated projects at once?)
- nupark2 15y ago
  > Why do people need IDE source control integration? ... So that I can hit cmd-option-C (in Xcode), review my diffs and commit, all in less than ~10 seconds. > Explorer integration on windows beats any IDE integration simply because you don't need to launch IDE with a correct project/workspace just to see if you have local changes or something. Once you have multiple sandboxes of different projects of a decent size, IDE integration doesn't cut it. If I'm working on a project, I'm going to have the IDE running anyway. It sounds like you have a significantly different working model. On OS X I'll fall back to the terminal for VCS without the IDE running, but it's not a replacement for in-IDE VCS.
- smackfu 15y ago
  I really value being able to see a real time diff vs. the latest version under source control, and to hover over the sidebar gutter to show me the previous code. Check in / check out isn't too valuable, but having add/delete automatically ripple through to source control is nice.

rbanffy 15y ago

Seriously? Are you implying this (http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/express#whatIsExpress http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-ed...) is somehow equivalent to this (http://developer.apple.com/technologies/tools/features.html http://developer.apple.com/technologies/tools/features.html)?

WayneDB 15y ago
Exactly which feature do you think can't be had by Windows developers for free? I suppose you could argue that "oh, with Apple I get it all in one package..." Big deal. You also have to buy an overpriced PC to run OS X and you can't even run the OS in a virtual machine via a hyper-visor.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Having everything integrated into one consistent package is the reason to use an IDE. iOS device emulation and Unix excepted, everything is sort of available from other sources, but, then, how much money would the time to assemble, learn and operate your duct-tape software development stack be worth?
  - WayneDB 15y ago
    Gee, I guess it's worth about $500. The same price you'd have to pay for a mac mini.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      Xcode can be expensive, but it comes with a nice, free computer.