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It's a real shame, because we have a cultural problem of glorified ignorance. In a sense I feel sorry for these lads, because they are tinkerers, hackers of a k

It's a real shame, because we have a cultural problem of glorified ignorance. In a sense I feel sorry for these lads, because they are tinkerers, hackers of a kind like us, but with grossly curtailed opportunities for expression and exploration. When I was a kid, modding bikes and engines was everyday fun. Wouldn't they potentially be great engineers with the right guidance and education? But today they all follow the same dumb formula, sawing of the exhaust pipe and catalytic convertor, mis-tuning the engine, jacking down the suspension, doing a really shit paint job... The culture beneath that is basically anti-social, not individualistic. Sadly one has to wonder whether the days of 2-stroke scooters are also numbered in the UK. There are still lots of middle-aged Mods, you can find them by the hundreds at summer seaside town scooter rallies. But turning the air blue with the stench of two-stroke oil particulates seems less and less acceptable each year. Maybe I am growing long in the tooth. Now, don't get me started on inappropriate use of emergency vehicle sirens, which is the REAL noise pollution issue in Britain today.

junofan 4y ago
I think we’ve clamped down on the little people enough. There’s clearly a growing gap in freedom of expression between developing countries and us.
- jimmytidey 4y ago
  I'm afraid I can't see this as freedom of expression, what idea are they expressing? If this is about freedom of expression, isn't fly tipping a type of expression that should be protected? In terms of general freedom, the question is does it disproportionately affect others? The answer couldn't be clearer - where I live a single person cruising around in their modified vehicle can ruin the sleep of thousands of people. In terms of the law, this is already illegal, all that's happening is the law is being enforced. I'm responding to this comment because I think a lot of people have a similar, erroneous, reaction - isn't this just another freedom being taken away? In a way yes, but the costs to individual liberty are vastly outweighed by the consequences for those who happen to be near by. And, of course, you can always modify your car and drive round a private race track, no activity has been totally prohibited.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    I actually agree with everything you say there Jimmy. They're anti-social toe-rags. But in the humanist tradition I'm digging a little deeper and asking what's going on for these kids? Why would you spend hundreds of pounds and lots of time trying to make your car a bloody nuisance? We ignore human psychology at our peril.
    - jimmytidey 4y ago
      I think you might be forgetting what being a teenage boy is like! I think a noisy car is straightforward 'look at me' peacock tail behaviour.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>It's a real shame, because we have a cultural problem of glorified ignorance And it goes high enough up the socioeconomic ladder that it should make everyone here uncomfortable. Seeing your own ignorance is like scratching the middle of your own back. You can't do it easily if at all. >Wouldn't they potentially be great engineers with the right guidance and education? But today they all follow the same dumb formula, sawing of the exhaust pipe and catalytic convertor, mis-tuning the engine, jacking down the suspension, doing a really shit paint job... The culture beneath that is basically anti-social, not individualistic. This is just the car exhaust version of Karen excusing her borderline alcoholic "wine mom" friends while complaining about people who sit around a burn barrel crushing bud light. Decibels are decibels. Jumping over the expensive hurdles one must to output them the rich people way doe not make them any less loud. >Sadly one has to wonder whether the days of 2-stroke scooters are also numbered in the UK. Probably gonna be replaced by e-bikes.
- Milner08 4y ago
  I think we need to give them a place to do it that wont piss people off. The UK has a great history of motorsport but has hardly any resources for getting started with your own car. I have seen in America where cops join in and mod their cars and race people on race tracks, it doesn't totally remove the anti-social behavior but by making these outlets cheap and easily accessible we can give people a new thing to focus on and get into without pissing off people.
- camtarn 4y ago
  > Probably gonna be replaced by e-bikes. Two stroke scooters have already been replaced by four stroke scooters, which are a lot less dirty. Anybody still riding a two stroke is probably riding a vintage machine. GP refers to the mod subculture, one strand of which involves modifying and riding 60s Lambretta and Vespa scooters, often with extra headlights, mirrors, and other accessories. I'm not a part of the subculture, but I think the vintage nature of the machines is part of the appeal, so I can't see them getting phased out until they're banned by law.
canbus 4y ago
relatively, i can't see someone a 50cc 2-stroke moped putting out more emissions than a huge 3-ton BMW X5 with a massive diesel engine, awd etc. which is carrying one person at any given time. As a classic car owner with a (small) 1300cc engine who drives their car about 5 times a year I would apply the same argument :-) though maybe it'll be banned now because my car isn't as quiet as a sewing machine...
- jjeaff 4y ago
  I don't know, run a full size modern diesel car in a garage for a few seconds then compare it to a 2 stroke running for the same amount of time. The 2 stroke will certainly smog up the place quicker.
  - canbus 4y ago
    those are just the visible gases - you can't see carbon monoxide etc.
  - camtarn 4y ago
    Yep. The scooter might output less CO2, but due to the primitive nature of the 2-stroke engine, it's basically chucking a rich aerosol of unburned fuel and lubricating oil out the exhaust. The X5, by comparison, has a catalytic converter to get rid of carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides and unburned fuel, plus a particulate filter to get rid of soot; it will also have secondary emission control systems to stop fuel vapours escaping from the fuel tank and crankcase. 2-strokes have remarkable power-to-weight ratios and are pleasingly mechanically simple, but goodness me they're dirty.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > relatively, i can't see someone a 50cc 2-stroke moped putting out more emissions than a huge 3-ton BMW X5 with a massive diesel engine, awd etc. which is carrying one person at any given time. Different kinds of emissions. CO2-wise, yes indeed the moped is less harmful. But the other emissions... a modern car is essentially a chemical lab on wheels. At least one actively managed catalytic converter to remove NOx, another one for diesel engines to burn leftover carbon monoxide, and then a particulate matter filter to trap and burn-off soot and other micro particles. A two-stroke engine usually only has a passive catalytic converter and that's it. It emits by design unburned fuel-oil mixture into the exhaust because the mixture is used as a lubricant, and beyond a muffler it has absolutely zero noise emission control.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
prmoustache 4y ago
>In a sense I feel sorry for these lads, because they are tinkerers, hackers of a kind like us, > [...] > Wouldn't they potentially be great engineers with the right guidance and education? I think you are ready way too much into this. For the most part these are people who just want a loud motorbike/car and just go to a store and ask for an Akrapovic titanium exhaust. Those who can't swallow the price just buy the lower tier items. That's it, job done. There is no more engineering/hacking in that than kids cramming a pet bottle between the rear tire and the brake bridge of their bicycle and most of it is about copy/pasting what they saw other people do.
retube 4y ago
Give me a break. "Hacking" and tinkering with bikes doesn't mean they have to be loud. Nobody's opportunities are being curtailed by asking them to be considerate of others and socially responsible. And anyway, in my experience, most owners of loud bikes are ratbags or deliberately looking to provoke, like the guy across the road who revs his bike at 1am and wakes up the whole street. I can assure you he's not a "hacker", just an inconsiderate dick.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > Nobody's opportunities are being curtailed by asking them to be considerate of others and socially responsible. Nobody suggested their opportunities are being curtailed by being asked to consider others and be socially responsible. But their opportunities are limited, which leads to infantile acting out, and that was the nub of my comment. Sometimes ones opportunities are constrained by social factors. Like growing up in a chavvy estate with mates who are all total muppets. Or being peer-pressured into having a "smartphone" when you're 10 and wasting your life on TikTok or whatever. Modern life gives the young less and less to work with. Random factoid: Alexander the Great had conquered all of Asia by the time he was 23 - at that age most Barry boys are still living with their mum.
- dang 4y ago
  "Please don't fulminate." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
cm2187 4y ago
In term of real noise pollution I would rank: 1) motorbikes, 2) modified cars/sport cars, 3) sirens 4) trucks
- WelcomeShorty 4y ago
  Depends on where you live I guess. Trains, airplanes, helicopters & neighbours are my top 4.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    I haven't ranked anything, so I'm not sure why you're responding with a ranking. I just said modded bikes and cars are bad, and that sirens in the UK are extremely loud and piercing. The siren issue is real anywhere, at least in London. It affects me wherever I happen to be, which is not always where I live.
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      I have no idea why I replied to this post. Brain fart, I guess. I probably saw it as a reply to my other comment but clearly I was wrong.
- richbradshaw 4y ago
  Where I am it's seagulls, then owls.
andrepd 4y ago
Two-stroke engines are a scourge that needs to go now. It's not on par with lead fuel but it's close, and it's completely unnecessary, there's hardly no two-stroke engines that can't be replaced with electric motors.
cassianoleal 4y ago
I disagree with most of this post. Modded cars and motorbikes are horrendous. The behaviour of their owners is even worse. It's not acceptable to wake up everybody in a densely populated area because you want to "express yourself". What I do agree with is that sirens are incredibly bad in this country. Not only the inappropriate use of them, but why are they so piercing and loud? Many times I nearly curled into a ball when walking on the pavement or cycling and one of those are suddenly activated next to me. I have nearly crashed my bike more than once. Every other country I have lived in or visited don't seem to have a problem with less aggressive sirens.
eurasiantiger 4y ago
Imagine sitting on your porch, some hundred feet or so away from the street. A regular motorbike passing might clock in a good 70dB of noise on a decibel meter. You can easily talk over that. A two-stroke enduro bike with an illegal exhaust, however, can put out over 110dB in the same setting. That is a 10,000 times more intense sound.

junofan 4y ago

I think we’ve clamped down on the little people enough. There’s clearly a growing gap in freedom of expression between developing countries and us.

jimmytidey 4y ago
I'm afraid I can't see this as freedom of expression, what idea are they expressing? If this is about freedom of expression, isn't fly tipping a type of expression that should be protected? In terms of general freedom, the question is does it disproportionately affect others? The answer couldn't be clearer - where I live a single person cruising around in their modified vehicle can ruin the sleep of thousands of people. In terms of the law, this is already illegal, all that's happening is the law is being enforced. I'm responding to this comment because I think a lot of people have a similar, erroneous, reaction - isn't this just another freedom being taken away? In a way yes, but the costs to individual liberty are vastly outweighed by the consequences for those who happen to be near by. And, of course, you can always modify your car and drive round a private race track, no activity has been totally prohibited.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  I actually agree with everything you say there Jimmy. They're anti-social toe-rags. But in the humanist tradition I'm digging a little deeper and asking what's going on for these kids? Why would you spend hundreds of pounds and lots of time trying to make your car a bloody nuisance? We ignore human psychology at our peril.
  - jimmytidey 4y ago
    I think you might be forgetting what being a teenage boy is like! I think a noisy car is straightforward 'look at me' peacock tail behaviour.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>It's a real shame, because we have a cultural problem of glorified ignorance And it goes high enough up the socioeconomic ladder that it should make everyone here uncomfortable. Seeing your own ignorance is like scratching the middle of your own back. You can't do it easily if at all. >Wouldn't they potentially be great engineers with the right guidance and education? But today they all follow the same dumb formula, sawing of the exhaust pipe and catalytic convertor, mis-tuning the engine, jacking down the suspension, doing a really shit paint job... The culture beneath that is basically anti-social, not individualistic. This is just the car exhaust version of Karen excusing her borderline alcoholic "wine mom" friends while complaining about people who sit around a burn barrel crushing bud light. Decibels are decibels. Jumping over the expensive hurdles one must to output them the rich people way doe not make them any less loud. >Sadly one has to wonder whether the days of 2-stroke scooters are also numbered in the UK. Probably gonna be replaced by e-bikes.

Milner08 4y ago
I think we need to give them a place to do it that wont piss people off. The UK has a great history of motorsport but has hardly any resources for getting started with your own car. I have seen in America where cops join in and mod their cars and race people on race tracks, it doesn't totally remove the anti-social behavior but by making these outlets cheap and easily accessible we can give people a new thing to focus on and get into without pissing off people.
camtarn 4y ago
> Probably gonna be replaced by e-bikes. Two stroke scooters have already been replaced by four stroke scooters, which are a lot less dirty. Anybody still riding a two stroke is probably riding a vintage machine. GP refers to the mod subculture, one strand of which involves modifying and riding 60s Lambretta and Vespa scooters, often with extra headlights, mirrors, and other accessories. I'm not a part of the subculture, but I think the vintage nature of the machines is part of the appeal, so I can't see them getting phased out until they're banned by law.

canbus 4y ago

relatively, i can't see someone a 50cc 2-stroke moped putting out more emissions than a huge 3-ton BMW X5 with a massive diesel engine, awd etc. which is carrying one person at any given time. As a classic car owner with a (small) 1300cc engine who drives their car about 5 times a year I would apply the same argument :-) though maybe it'll be banned now because my car isn't as quiet as a sewing machine...

jjeaff 4y ago
I don't know, run a full size modern diesel car in a garage for a few seconds then compare it to a 2 stroke running for the same amount of time. The 2 stroke will certainly smog up the place quicker.
- canbus 4y ago
  those are just the visible gases - you can't see carbon monoxide etc.
- camtarn 4y ago
  Yep. The scooter might output less CO2, but due to the primitive nature of the 2-stroke engine, it's basically chucking a rich aerosol of unburned fuel and lubricating oil out the exhaust. The X5, by comparison, has a catalytic converter to get rid of carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides and unburned fuel, plus a particulate filter to get rid of soot; it will also have secondary emission control systems to stop fuel vapours escaping from the fuel tank and crankcase. 2-strokes have remarkable power-to-weight ratios and are pleasingly mechanically simple, but goodness me they're dirty.
mschuster91 4y ago
> relatively, i can't see someone a 50cc 2-stroke moped putting out more emissions than a huge 3-ton BMW X5 with a massive diesel engine, awd etc. which is carrying one person at any given time. Different kinds of emissions. CO2-wise, yes indeed the moped is less harmful. But the other emissions... a modern car is essentially a chemical lab on wheels. At least one actively managed catalytic converter to remove NOx, another one for diesel engines to burn leftover carbon monoxide, and then a particulate matter filter to trap and burn-off soot and other micro particles. A two-stroke engine usually only has a passive catalytic converter and that's it. It emits by design unburned fuel-oil mixture into the exhaust because the mixture is used as a lubricant, and beyond a muffler it has absolutely zero noise emission control.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

prmoustache 4y ago

>In a sense I feel sorry for these lads, because they are tinkerers, hackers of a kind like us, > [...] > Wouldn't they potentially be great engineers with the right guidance and education? I think you are ready way too much into this. For the most part these are people who just want a loud motorbike/car and just go to a store and ask for an Akrapovic titanium exhaust. Those who can't swallow the price just buy the lower tier items. That's it, job done. There is no more engineering/hacking in that than kids cramming a pet bottle between the rear tire and the brake bridge of their bicycle and most of it is about copy/pasting what they saw other people do.

retube 4y ago

Give me a break. "Hacking" and tinkering with bikes doesn't mean they have to be loud. Nobody's opportunities are being curtailed by asking them to be considerate of others and socially responsible. And anyway, in my experience, most owners of loud bikes are ratbags or deliberately looking to provoke, like the guy across the road who revs his bike at 1am and wakes up the whole street. I can assure you he's not a "hacker", just an inconsiderate dick.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> Nobody's opportunities are being curtailed by asking them to be considerate of others and socially responsible. Nobody suggested their opportunities are being curtailed by being asked to consider others and be socially responsible. But their opportunities are limited, which leads to infantile acting out, and that was the nub of my comment. Sometimes ones opportunities are constrained by social factors. Like growing up in a chavvy estate with mates who are all total muppets. Or being peer-pressured into having a "smartphone" when you're 10 and wasting your life on TikTok or whatever. Modern life gives the young less and less to work with. Random factoid: Alexander the Great had conquered all of Asia by the time he was 23 - at that age most Barry boys are still living with their mum.
dang 4y ago
"Please don't fulminate." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

cm2187 4y ago

In term of real noise pollution I would rank: 1) motorbikes, 2) modified cars/sport cars, 3) sirens 4) trucks

WelcomeShorty 4y ago
Depends on where you live I guess. Trains, airplanes, helicopters & neighbours are my top 4.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  I haven't ranked anything, so I'm not sure why you're responding with a ranking. I just said modded bikes and cars are bad, and that sirens in the UK are extremely loud and piercing. The siren issue is real anywhere, at least in London. It affects me wherever I happen to be, which is not always where I live.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    I have no idea why I replied to this post. Brain fart, I guess. I probably saw it as a reply to my other comment but clearly I was wrong.
richbradshaw 4y ago
Where I am it's seagulls, then owls.

andrepd 4y ago

Two-stroke engines are a scourge that needs to go now. It's not on par with lead fuel but it's close, and it's completely unnecessary, there's hardly no two-stroke engines that can't be replaced with electric motors.

cassianoleal 4y ago

I disagree with most of this post. Modded cars and motorbikes are horrendous. The behaviour of their owners is even worse. It's not acceptable to wake up everybody in a densely populated area because you want to "express yourself". What I do agree with is that sirens are incredibly bad in this country. Not only the inappropriate use of them, but why are they so piercing and loud? Many times I nearly curled into a ball when walking on the pavement or cycling and one of those are suddenly activated next to me. I have nearly crashed my bike more than once. Every other country I have lived in or visited don't seem to have a problem with less aggressive sirens.

eurasiantiger 4y ago

Imagine sitting on your porch, some hundred feet or so away from the street. A regular motorbike passing might clock in a good 70dB of noise on a decibel meter. You can easily talk over that. A two-stroke enduro bike with an illegal exhaust, however, can put out over 110dB in the same setting. That is a 10,000 times more intense sound.