5 ms·

Same for us Europoors. Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the

Same for us Europoors. Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level. But they know there's so few options in Europe so they set the salaries according to "local market conditions".

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), In which country are you? We Europoors usually have labor laws to protect us from having to work so late. Where I live we have core working hours in our contract, 10:00 to 16:00, any work requests after that are voluntary for the employees. Is that not something you can use to push back on this?
- Bayart 4y ago
  Labour laws do not apply if you're freelancing, which you have to do most of the time for US companies.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Yeah, but good luck enforcing that with no trade union, nevermind if you're aiming for a promotion, etc. Like real worker power comes from having good economic conditions and strong trade unions - the American engineers have far more bargaining power, because they can easily get competing $150k-250k offers which are unimaginable in Europe.
Fnoord 4y ago
Well, I guess I'd be fired quickly because between 7 and 8 PM CET I put my kids to bed, usually fall asleep too.
ignoramous 4y ago
> Same for us Europoors. Mate, it isn't quite nearly the same for Europeans.
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  It is. We're getting paid peanuts compared to our American counterparts and we do the same work. What's worse is we pay higher taxes. The only way this changes is by European tech workers standing together and demanding matched salaries.
  - philjohn 4y ago
    But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare.
    - arinlen 4y ago
      > But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare. Irrelevant. Just because you work for a US company that does not mean your kids should go to US colleges.
  - jokethrowaway 4y ago
    In terms of compensation maybe (I'd say Indians in USA generally make more than EU devs), but you don't fear being fired and deported. That said, Russian and Chinese developers had the same happening in companies in the UK.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    The point is that Indian workers are held hostage due to threat of deportation / returning home. European remote workers still live at home and have much more job mobility.
    - nivenkos 4y ago
      European workers face the same threat in the USA...
      - ben_w 4y ago
philjohn 4y ago
That's ridiculous - that's 11am for them, well within their work day, but well outside yours. I'm lucky that we have a "We'll dial into meetings slightly earlier, if you can dial in slightly later" entente and so it's rare for meetings with west coast to go past 18:00 GMT.
PoignardAzur 4y ago
... Am I the only one looking at American companies offering me 3-digits salaries and going "holy shit, that's a really good deal"? In my case, the company is extremely accommodating and doesn't schedule reunions at hours that are inconvenient for me, but even if they did, I'd still consider it worth it for the compensation they give out. I dunno. Maybe I could get an even better deal if I pushed hard or if I unionized or whatever, but right now I just look at the fact that I'm getting 5x what a middle-school teacher gets while doing way less work, and I just... don't feel the anger? (maybe other american companies pay a lot less, though)
- gabagool 4y ago
  3 digits? So up to $999/year? That sounds extremely low. In the US salaries are done per year, so a 6-figure salary is >=$100,000/year. Do you mean as an hourly wage? That would be $200,000+/year and a 6-figure salary.
  - thw09j9m 4y ago
    Hourly would be $2,000,000+/year at that rate
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    I imagine they mean three digits above the first set of zeroes.
  - PoignardAzur 4y ago
    Right, I meant 6 digits. I think I meant "3 digits before the K".
kshacker 4y ago
Same for us in Bay Area with 7 AM calls to talk to our euro brethren. It is not all rosy. And with the on call shift (when on call, not every week) going till 6:30 pM, sometimes it is 12 hour work days by design. on the other hand, they don't bug us much during the day with micro management so it is not all bad.
- crossroadsguy 4y ago
  Hehe. 12 hours! In India it’s routine (in fact standard) for US companies to have the Indian on-call person for 24x7 on-call. Rarely companies have follow the sun policy. Very few! Definitely not Ubers and Amazons. And Indian managers are the enforcers of this - it’s probably one of the only significant USP these managers have “I’ll get it done by same engineers at the lower Indian rates“. US HR and leadership wash their hands off the problem - “oh, we give you full ownership, you should decide and own this” :)
happyopossum 4y ago
> Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level. Joining late meetings and being paid typical local rates is hardly the same as being paid half the local rates and facing deportation. The former sucks, but the latter is unconscionable.
grassgreener 4y ago
If you were to pick where would you choose to live? It’s very much a trade off, salaries are higher in the US, but the quality of life is piss poor compared to anywhere in Europe. Healthcare is terrible and expensive, Education is lousy and expensive, housing is expensive and city life, outside of a couple of cities, is mediocre (car centric, no culture, segregated). Oh and you are at-will employed, which means you are one phone call away from getting fired on the spot. For context, I’m a European in a US city. I’m not sure for how long I’ll be able to stay here.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), In which country are you? We Europoors usually have labor laws to protect us from having to work so late. Where I live we have core working hours in our contract, 10:00 to 16:00, any work requests after that are voluntary for the employees. Is that not something you can use to push back on this?

Bayart 4y ago
Labour laws do not apply if you're freelancing, which you have to do most of the time for US companies.
nivenkos 4y ago
Yeah, but good luck enforcing that with no trade union, nevermind if you're aiming for a promotion, etc. Like real worker power comes from having good economic conditions and strong trade unions - the American engineers have far more bargaining power, because they can easily get competing $150k-250k offers which are unimaginable in Europe.

Fnoord 4y ago

Well, I guess I'd be fired quickly because between 7 and 8 PM CET I put my kids to bed, usually fall asleep too.

ignoramous 4y ago

> Same for us Europoors. Mate, it isn't quite nearly the same for Europeans.

emptysongglass 4y ago
It is. We're getting paid peanuts compared to our American counterparts and we do the same work. What's worse is we pay higher taxes. The only way this changes is by European tech workers standing together and demanding matched salaries.
- philjohn 4y ago
  But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare.
  - arinlen 4y ago
    > But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare. Irrelevant. Just because you work for a US company that does not mean your kids should go to US colleges.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  In terms of compensation maybe (I'd say Indians in USA generally make more than EU devs), but you don't fear being fired and deported. That said, Russian and Chinese developers had the same happening in companies in the UK.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  The point is that Indian workers are held hostage due to threat of deportation / returning home. European remote workers still live at home and have much more job mobility.
  - nivenkos 4y ago
    European workers face the same threat in the USA...
    - ben_w 4y ago

philjohn 4y ago

That's ridiculous - that's 11am for them, well within their work day, but well outside yours. I'm lucky that we have a "We'll dial into meetings slightly earlier, if you can dial in slightly later" entente and so it's rare for meetings with west coast to go past 18:00 GMT.

PoignardAzur 4y ago

... Am I the only one looking at American companies offering me 3-digits salaries and going "holy shit, that's a really good deal"? In my case, the company is extremely accommodating and doesn't schedule reunions at hours that are inconvenient for me, but even if they did, I'd still consider it worth it for the compensation they give out. I dunno. Maybe I could get an even better deal if I pushed hard or if I unionized or whatever, but right now I just look at the fact that I'm getting 5x what a middle-school teacher gets while doing way less work, and I just... don't feel the anger? (maybe other american companies pay a lot less, though)

gabagool 4y ago
3 digits? So up to $999/year? That sounds extremely low. In the US salaries are done per year, so a 6-figure salary is >=$100,000/year. Do you mean as an hourly wage? That would be $200,000+/year and a 6-figure salary.
- thw09j9m 4y ago
  Hourly would be $2,000,000+/year at that rate
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  I imagine they mean three digits above the first set of zeroes.
- PoignardAzur 4y ago
  Right, I meant 6 digits. I think I meant "3 digits before the K".

kshacker 4y ago

Same for us in Bay Area with 7 AM calls to talk to our euro brethren. It is not all rosy. And with the on call shift (when on call, not every week) going till 6:30 pM, sometimes it is 12 hour work days by design. on the other hand, they don't bug us much during the day with micro management so it is not all bad.

crossroadsguy 4y ago
Hehe. 12 hours! In India it’s routine (in fact standard) for US companies to have the Indian on-call person for 24x7 on-call. Rarely companies have follow the sun policy. Very few! Definitely not Ubers and Amazons. And Indian managers are the enforcers of this - it’s probably one of the only significant USP these managers have “I’ll get it done by same engineers at the lower Indian rates“. US HR and leadership wash their hands off the problem - “oh, we give you full ownership, you should decide and own this” :)

happyopossum 4y ago

> Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level. Joining late meetings and being paid typical local rates is hardly the same as being paid half the local rates and facing deportation. The former sucks, but the latter is unconscionable.

grassgreener 4y ago

If you were to pick where would you choose to live? It’s very much a trade off, salaries are higher in the US, but the quality of life is piss poor compared to anywhere in Europe. Healthcare is terrible and expensive, Education is lousy and expensive, housing is expensive and city life, outside of a couple of cities, is mediocre (car centric, no culture, segregated). Oh and you are at-will employed, which means you are one phone call away from getting fired on the spot. For context, I’m a European in a US city. I’m not sure for how long I’ll be able to stay here.