6 ms·

Even though the subject is real, and has good reasons that it might not be fixable, the article feels very loosely based: The whole experience is based on a pr

by phh 4y ago

Even though the subject is real, and has good reasons that it might not be fixable, the article feels very loosely based: The whole experience is based on a precise bespoke VR app. There is no information about it, or the used headset. To be fair that info might be available in the paper, but that's still bespoke app we can't know the quality of. This quote makes me doubt even more: > “If my iPhone doesn’t load a page instantly, I might grumble about it, but that’s the end of it,” Ringgenberg told The Daily Beast. “If my VR app stutters on me, I might physically get sick. That does keep people away from this technology.” This is perfectly true! When it happens on my oculus quest 2, I immediately feel dizzy. BUT I can count the number of times it happened to me over a hundred hours of play on my fingers. (Notably I can reproduce one IO related freeze in Synthriderz' Lindsey Stirling Experience) Also, this article doesn't mention brain rewiring: if we hand over modern smartphones to the average 2002 computer person, they would have no idea how to use it "where's the cursor", " how do I move windows", "why is my screen getting junk on its top without my will", " why isn't there a button to switch programs"? We just upgraded our brains to handle that. Same could happen with VR. I'm definitely not a metaverse advocate, I still fail to see it immersive enough and cheap enough to work, and it requires a huge shift back to actually giving attention (which is ironic considering Facebook killed that attention). But I think the Oculus Quest 2 is an excellent game console (which implies it is not for everyone and that's fine)

donkeyd 4y ago
> and it requires a huge shift back to actually giving attention Good point, I hadn't thought about it this way. Will people prefer fake living in the Bahamas over watching other people really living in the Bahamas? It's an interesting question. It'll also require actual interaction without displaying your physical appearance, which Instagram, TikTok and Snap seem to have killed. I do like the idea of digital gatherings though. Being able to chill and interact with a distant family member like they're right next to you is pretty cool.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Interestingly, I just saw someone making an argument on Twitter with respect to VR in education that one of its benefits might be that it would force kids to pay attention and be involved. Not sure I buy it but it's interesting. This of course is also one of the reasons that I wouldn't want it for most business settings. I either don't need immersion that goes beyond video or even just audio for most conversations. Or I actively want to just be partially engaged--most big meetings I'm in.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    “Johnny, put your headset back on!” The whole thing is unnecessary and dystopian to the max.
dagw 4y ago
Same could happen with VR. It doesn't seem to happen with sea sickness. I know people who've been sailing for 20+ years and they still feel a bit crap the 24 hours at sea.
vasco 4y ago
I think you're overplaying the angle of brain rewiring to learn how to use a phone. That was just learning how to use a tool like any other. A very different thing is using a tool that makes people feel physically sick. My guess is that people will prefer to avoid a chance of feeling cybersick when they can just use some other form of entertainment / display that is guaranteed not to cause any sickness, even if the device is superior when it works without side effects.
- thenewthotness 4y ago
  That may be true for the feeling of nausea but smart phones almost certainly give rise to all kinds of maladaptive behaviours and subtle mental illnesses.
sanitycheck 4y ago
"if we hand over modern smartphones to the average 2002 computer person, they would have no idea how to use it" You might have to go back to the early 90s for that, we had PocketPC and Palm and Symbian in the 00's... The change since 2002 has been incremental, I think 2002 me would find today's Android similar but faster and simpler - and today's iOS equally as confusing as 2022 me finds it. I think VR is still in the PocketPC stage, where early adopters think it's great but most people don't need it or want it, it's expensive and/or clunky. It might catch on in 20 years when someone has another go with much better tech.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  Handhelds have never really gone away since the days of the Newton. I owned a Psion 3, then 5, then Palm IIIxe, then a Dell Axim and then the first smartphones came out. First Symbian which was basically Psion, then iPhone and then Android. I've never not had a smart device ever since the first. And while they have improved a lot some great features were lost (for example the Psion was much better to type an email on than a smartphone). But my point is: it doesn't have to be perfect yet to be adding value. If it's not for everyone yet it doesn't mean it's a useless flop.
  - sanitycheck 4y ago
    The richest nerd at my school had a Psion 5, I was totally sold on the concept and still am. They'd disappeared by the time I was in a position to spend money on expensive toys though, sadly. I agree with you that new tech can be good even if only a few people ever buy/use it, however I get the impression that Meta is investing billions in this VR stuff and are targeting "everyone"
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > You might have to go back to the early 90s for that, we had PocketPC and Palm and Symbian in the 00's... The change since 2002 has been incremental, I think 2002 me would find today's Android similar but faster and simpler - and today's iOS equally as confusing as 2022 me finds it. Someone never did VR boxing at the Trocadero in London in the early 2000s.
throwaway71271 4y ago
> That does keep people away from this technology. the whole article starts with the point that people get motion sickness, and yet people still go on cruises and people drive cars, some people have to take medicine, but it did not stop the technology. if there is real need for VR, it might be that those who get sick, will just be outcasts, if there is no real need, I dont think it matters if people get sick or
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  People still go on cruises and drive etc. as there's not much of an alternative if you want to travel. I don't think there's really much of a need for VR outside of specialist fields that require good 3d vision (e.g. remote surgery) as 2d vision is good enough for most things.
_dain_ 4y ago
>We just upgraded our brains to handle that. You mean, downgraded.
BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
> Also, this article doesn't mention brain rewiring: if we hand over modern smartphones to the average 2002 computer person, they would have no idea how to use it "where's the cursor", " how do I move windows", "why is my screen getting junk on its top without my will", " why isn't there a button to switch programs"? We just upgraded our brains to handle that. Same could happen with VR. Those are not remotely comparable.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
> This is perfectly true! When it happens on my oculus quest 2, I immediately feel dizzy. BUT I can count the number of times it happened to me over a hundred hours of play on my fingers. Indeed. PCVR has a bit less attention to it, the Quest experiences are very polished. As one oarticular example, once X-Plane 11 starts loading it freezes the "loading hangar" you're looking at, and when you move your head it stays in the same place, making it 'feel' like it's moving in the opposite direction instead. It is extremely sickening and vertigo-inducing. I really have to close my eyes or jump to the SteamVR UI when that happens. Really, a developer should really avoid this at all costs. Just jumping to a black loading screen would have fixed it and it feels very lazy at the expense of the user. It's a shame because X-Plane is otherwise much better than Microsoft Flight Simulator in its VR support. The "Ergonomic Yoke" is amazing and the buttons are much more responsive than in MSFS which made a really half-hearted attempt to support VR controllers. But again, the native Quest experiences in the store are very well curated to avoid this.

by phh 4y ago

donkeyd 4y ago

> and it requires a huge shift back to actually giving attention Good point, I hadn't thought about it this way. Will people prefer fake living in the Bahamas over watching other people really living in the Bahamas? It's an interesting question. It'll also require actual interaction without displaying your physical appearance, which Instagram, TikTok and Snap seem to have killed. I do like the idea of digital gatherings though. Being able to chill and interact with a distant family member like they're right next to you is pretty cool.

ghaff 4y ago
Interestingly, I just saw someone making an argument on Twitter with respect to VR in education that one of its benefits might be that it would force kids to pay attention and be involved. Not sure I buy it but it's interesting. This of course is also one of the reasons that I wouldn't want it for most business settings. I either don't need immersion that goes beyond video or even just audio for most conversations. Or I actively want to just be partially engaged--most big meetings I'm in.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  “Johnny, put your headset back on!” The whole thing is unnecessary and dystopian to the max.

dagw 4y ago

Same could happen with VR. It doesn't seem to happen with sea sickness. I know people who've been sailing for 20+ years and they still feel a bit crap the 24 hours at sea.

vasco 4y ago

I think you're overplaying the angle of brain rewiring to learn how to use a phone. That was just learning how to use a tool like any other. A very different thing is using a tool that makes people feel physically sick. My guess is that people will prefer to avoid a chance of feeling cybersick when they can just use some other form of entertainment / display that is guaranteed not to cause any sickness, even if the device is superior when it works without side effects.

thenewthotness 4y ago
That may be true for the feeling of nausea but smart phones almost certainly give rise to all kinds of maladaptive behaviours and subtle mental illnesses.

sanitycheck 4y ago

"if we hand over modern smartphones to the average 2002 computer person, they would have no idea how to use it" You might have to go back to the early 90s for that, we had PocketPC and Palm and Symbian in the 00's... The change since 2002 has been incremental, I think 2002 me would find today's Android similar but faster and simpler - and today's iOS equally as confusing as 2022 me finds it. I think VR is still in the PocketPC stage, where early adopters think it's great but most people don't need it or want it, it's expensive and/or clunky. It might catch on in 20 years when someone has another go with much better tech.

GekkePrutser 4y ago
Handhelds have never really gone away since the days of the Newton. I owned a Psion 3, then 5, then Palm IIIxe, then a Dell Axim and then the first smartphones came out. First Symbian which was basically Psion, then iPhone and then Android. I've never not had a smart device ever since the first. And while they have improved a lot some great features were lost (for example the Psion was much better to type an email on than a smartphone). But my point is: it doesn't have to be perfect yet to be adding value. If it's not for everyone yet it doesn't mean it's a useless flop.
- sanitycheck 4y ago
  The richest nerd at my school had a Psion 5, I was totally sold on the concept and still am. They'd disappeared by the time I was in a position to spend money on expensive toys though, sadly. I agree with you that new tech can be good even if only a few people ever buy/use it, however I get the impression that Meta is investing billions in this VR stuff and are targeting "everyone"
robertlagrant 4y ago
> You might have to go back to the early 90s for that, we had PocketPC and Palm and Symbian in the 00's... The change since 2002 has been incremental, I think 2002 me would find today's Android similar but faster and simpler - and today's iOS equally as confusing as 2022 me finds it. Someone never did VR boxing at the Trocadero in London in the early 2000s.

throwaway71271 4y ago

> That does keep people away from this technology. the whole article starts with the point that people get motion sickness, and yet people still go on cruises and people drive cars, some people have to take medicine, but it did not stop the technology. if there is real need for VR, it might be that those who get sick, will just be outcasts, if there is no real need, I dont think it matters if people get sick or

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
People still go on cruises and drive etc. as there's not much of an alternative if you want to travel. I don't think there's really much of a need for VR outside of specialist fields that require good 3d vision (e.g. remote surgery) as 2d vision is good enough for most things.

_dain_ 4y ago

>We just upgraded our brains to handle that. You mean, downgraded.

BaculumMeumEst 4y ago

> Also, this article doesn't mention brain rewiring: if we hand over modern smartphones to the average 2002 computer person, they would have no idea how to use it "where's the cursor", " how do I move windows", "why is my screen getting junk on its top without my will", " why isn't there a button to switch programs"? We just upgraded our brains to handle that. Same could happen with VR. Those are not remotely comparable.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

> This is perfectly true! When it happens on my oculus quest 2, I immediately feel dizzy. BUT I can count the number of times it happened to me over a hundred hours of play on my fingers. Indeed. PCVR has a bit less attention to it, the Quest experiences are very polished. As one oarticular example, once X-Plane 11 starts loading it freezes the "loading hangar" you're looking at, and when you move your head it stays in the same place, making it 'feel' like it's moving in the opposite direction instead. It is extremely sickening and vertigo-inducing. I really have to close my eyes or jump to the SteamVR UI when that happens. Really, a developer should really avoid this at all costs. Just jumping to a black loading screen would have fixed it and it feels very lazy at the expense of the user. It's a shame because X-Plane is otherwise much better than Microsoft Flight Simulator in its VR support. The "Ergonomic Yoke" is amazing and the buttons are much more responsive than in MSFS which made a really half-hearted attempt to support VR controllers. But again, the native Quest experiences in the store are very well curated to avoid this.