6 ms·

"I'd have to bring my electrical systems up to code and that's expensive for my 80 year old house" Well, yeah. I suppose it would be. I'm a bit surprised this

"I'd have to bring my electrical systems up to code and that's expensive for my 80 year old house" Well, yeah. I suppose it would be. I'm a bit surprised this is a surprise to the landlord. Also, many of the costs here are looming anyways. It's a matter of when, not if, the electrical needs updating to meet code.

sschueller 4y ago
Grandfathering in electrical codes seems quite dangerous. At some point wouldn't the city just require it or deem the property unsafe?
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I agree, especially if you are a landlord.
  - cammikebrown 4y ago
    They don’t because (in places like California at least) their property taxes go up if they do any significant upgrades
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      That is the same in my state of Wyoming. The assessors visit my property every year and ask what improvements I've made. Two weeks after I bought the property they showed up and went through a checklist with me that detailed everything they knew about the house. I did something taboo and brought them into the house because they listed something as "fair" that was "bad". It's funny though, all of this is just for tax revenue. They don't care about electrical wiring, plumbing, etc... I am told that when a house is first built they will inspect the electrical but I do not believe them. I've had to fix dozens of incorrectly wired sockets and really janky wiring in the circuit breaker panel and missing grounding connections.
  - dagw 4y ago
    On the other hand, as a landlord it's not your health and safety you're gambling with. As long as your insurance company doesn't complain, spending a lot of money to decrease the risk of fire doesn't make financial sense.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      [flagged]
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  no, the property will just burn down in a fiery electrical explosion killing anyone unlucky enough to have been there after the contractor missed the ancient arts necessary to avoid that. municipalities lack consensus for any other outcome to occur, they are all land fiefdoms.
  - alias_neo 4y ago
    I'm on board with what you're saying, but also electrics done to "code" can burn down your house. My mother in law told me yesterday that my sister in law's mother in law's house burned down while they slept (they're safe) this week due to brand new electrics in a brand new house extension, carried out by a licensed (is that the correct word for an electrician?) professional. This is in England
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      whose house? I need a chart, or was this sarcasm about hearsay
      - alias_neo 4y ago
        Sadly not, it was a bit of a confusing one to write, there may be an easier way to describe the relationship but it seemed quite funny to read so I left it. I meant to say my wife's sister's partner's mother.
    - sschueller 4y ago
      Isn't the code in the UK quite lax? From what I understand this is the reason every plug in the UK is required to have a fuse because the homes are not properly fused.
      - alias_neo 4y ago
        I don't know honestly, the plug fuse thing is due to us having ring mains which I heard was due to copper savings around war time I believe; I'm too young to know as a 30-something millennial, and haven't looked into it properly as that reason seems plausible. Our circuits are "properly fused" though with RCDs/circuit breakers, but they're high current because we can have so many large current drawing devices on a single circuit (such as in the kitchen) which is always given its own circuit.
- janstice 4y ago
  In my neck of the woods, eventually your insurance will not cover you for damage caused by out of spec electrical wiring, which then endangers a mortgage…
- Ekaros 4y ago
  On other hand I think mandating upgrades every time code changes for everything would be unsustainable. From many perspectives like supply of labour and materials. And fact that creating such uneven demand would cause very messy labour market. Mandating ripping out immediately everything dangerous or carcinogenic, would be even bigger issue. And these things don't cause actually so many issues to be very life threatening. They have been around for decades after all.
- xani__ 4y ago
- aynyc 4y ago
  Because it would destroy poor-middle class home owners and renters. This year, it's electrical, next year is gas line, the year after is sewer, soon enough, poor-middle class won't be able to afford any homes and rents will go up. This is particular true in larger cities.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.
    - aynyc 4y ago
      To bring something up to code, it takes weeks if not months. Getting permit, construction and inspection. You can't tie up a sale until that's done. Where do you get the money to pay for that? Buyer isn't gonna wait for X months, especially if buyers want to do their own renovations. You know what people will do? Pass the buck to the buyer (Sold As Is). The cycle repeats again and again.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        You require something akin to an FHA 203k loan, where the improvements can be financed with bank oversight. You make these specific improvements a requirement where, if not performed using the funds provided, the loan is in default. Cash transaction can still require the work be done; have the county recorder notify the permit office of the AHJ. Lots of paths to success here.
        willcipriano 4y ago
        Some codes would require you do things like tear down a addition that was perfectly legal and safe last year or moving a house back further from a road that the government expanded. Not everything in local building codes is for safety, there is a lot of aesthetic stuff in there. Imagine being forced to rip out a 100 year old oak tree because it isn't legal to have a tree in your front yard anymore. Pools are no longer allowed, fill it in. No thanks. I'd never buy in a locality like that, might as well live in a HOA.
bhhaskin 4y ago
That's not necessarily true. It sounds like most of the upgrades are about convenience to the power company. Not anything safety related, which is why older properties are exempt. You also have to remember that it takes a lot of power to be able to change an EV in timely manner. It is easily the number one consumer of energy. Older neighborhoods utilities where never designed to do that.
- jxramos 4y ago
  that is interesting to consider a neighborhood scale of infrastructure and the capabilities therein. How much copper is underground in various places, is fiber internet present or on the way, something to think about for sure.
- breput 4y ago
  > It sounds like most of the upgrades are about convenience to the power company. Not anything safety related, which is why older properties are exempt. That is definitely not true. An 80 year old house might not even have grounded outlets, let alone GFCI or AFCI protected outlets. > You also have to remember that it takes a lot of power to be able to change an EV in timely manner Nobody worries about how many electric ovens, clothes dryers, or air conditioners are in an older neighborhood. 240V at 30A is a trivial load addition, and even if it were to become a concern, there are existing mechanisms to shed load during peak usage. Even a crude cut-off switch, like many air conditioners have, would be sufficient.
  - bhhaskin 4y ago
    GFCI and AFCI are great! But a home isn't going to burst into flames or explode without them. Which is why there are exemptions. 240v at 30A is most definitely not a trivial load. Most homes have 100 amp service. That would be 30% of your homes total power capacity just for changing EV. You wouldn't be able to run AC and the dryer and charge an EV at the same time at that rate. But more importantly there is only so much power at the pole.
    - breput 4y ago
voisin 4y ago
> I'm a bit surprised this is a surprise to the landlord. Also, many of the costs here are looming anyways. It's a matter of when, not if, the electrical needs updating to meet code. I see this all the time. “Investors” buy real estate by assuming repairs and maintenance to be minimal and then pocketing every dime of excess cash created by the property. Then, over time when the windows need to be replaced or the roof or the electrical system upgraded or the HVAC improved, they don’t have any budget for it because they’ve become used to living off all of the income (despite the fact that over their 10-20 years of ownership they’ve seen rents increase dramatically). So what do they do? They list it for sale at high current market rents as if all of this deferred maintenance / Capex has been completed. This puts buyers in a position of paying a massive purchase price and having massive costs to renovate / upgrade. I hate landlords like this. Fortunately you can spot them a mile away. If the paint is peeling, then the electrical isn’t to code.
- rconti 4y ago
  You don't have to spot them a mile away, the article plainly says the landlord used to occupy the duplex until their family grew too large for it.
  - voisin 4y ago
    I writing more generally in response to the previous commenter’s statement about being surprised.
phone8675309 4y ago
They sound like a bit of a slumlord to me based on that description.

sschueller 4y ago

Grandfathering in electrical codes seems quite dangerous. At some point wouldn't the city just require it or deem the property unsafe?

socialismisok 4y ago
I agree, especially if you are a landlord.
- cammikebrown 4y ago
  They don’t because (in places like California at least) their property taxes go up if they do any significant upgrades
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    That is the same in my state of Wyoming. The assessors visit my property every year and ask what improvements I've made. Two weeks after I bought the property they showed up and went through a checklist with me that detailed everything they knew about the house. I did something taboo and brought them into the house because they listed something as "fair" that was "bad". It's funny though, all of this is just for tax revenue. They don't care about electrical wiring, plumbing, etc... I am told that when a house is first built they will inspect the electrical but I do not believe them. I've had to fix dozens of incorrectly wired sockets and really janky wiring in the circuit breaker panel and missing grounding connections.
- dagw 4y ago
  On the other hand, as a landlord it's not your health and safety you're gambling with. As long as your insurance company doesn't complain, spending a lot of money to decrease the risk of fire doesn't make financial sense.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    [flagged]
yieldcrv 4y ago
no, the property will just burn down in a fiery electrical explosion killing anyone unlucky enough to have been there after the contractor missed the ancient arts necessary to avoid that. municipalities lack consensus for any other outcome to occur, they are all land fiefdoms.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  I'm on board with what you're saying, but also electrics done to "code" can burn down your house. My mother in law told me yesterday that my sister in law's mother in law's house burned down while they slept (they're safe) this week due to brand new electrics in a brand new house extension, carried out by a licensed (is that the correct word for an electrician?) professional. This is in England
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    whose house? I need a chart, or was this sarcasm about hearsay
    - alias_neo 4y ago
      Sadly not, it was a bit of a confusing one to write, there may be an easier way to describe the relationship but it seemed quite funny to read so I left it. I meant to say my wife's sister's partner's mother.
  - sschueller 4y ago
    Isn't the code in the UK quite lax? From what I understand this is the reason every plug in the UK is required to have a fuse because the homes are not properly fused.
    - alias_neo 4y ago
      I don't know honestly, the plug fuse thing is due to us having ring mains which I heard was due to copper savings around war time I believe; I'm too young to know as a 30-something millennial, and haven't looked into it properly as that reason seems plausible. Our circuits are "properly fused" though with RCDs/circuit breakers, but they're high current because we can have so many large current drawing devices on a single circuit (such as in the kitchen) which is always given its own circuit.
janstice 4y ago
In my neck of the woods, eventually your insurance will not cover you for damage caused by out of spec electrical wiring, which then endangers a mortgage…
Ekaros 4y ago
On other hand I think mandating upgrades every time code changes for everything would be unsustainable. From many perspectives like supply of labour and materials. And fact that creating such uneven demand would cause very messy labour market. Mandating ripping out immediately everything dangerous or carcinogenic, would be even bigger issue. And these things don't cause actually so many issues to be very life threatening. They have been around for decades after all.
xani__ 4y ago
aynyc 4y ago
Because it would destroy poor-middle class home owners and renters. This year, it's electrical, next year is gas line, the year after is sewer, soon enough, poor-middle class won't be able to afford any homes and rents will go up. This is particular true in larger cities.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.
  - aynyc 4y ago
    To bring something up to code, it takes weeks if not months. Getting permit, construction and inspection. You can't tie up a sale until that's done. Where do you get the money to pay for that? Buyer isn't gonna wait for X months, especially if buyers want to do their own renovations. You know what people will do? Pass the buck to the buyer (Sold As Is). The cycle repeats again and again.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      You require something akin to an FHA 203k loan, where the improvements can be financed with bank oversight. You make these specific improvements a requirement where, if not performed using the funds provided, the loan is in default. Cash transaction can still require the work be done; have the county recorder notify the permit office of the AHJ. Lots of paths to success here.
      - willcipriano 4y ago
        Some codes would require you do things like tear down a addition that was perfectly legal and safe last year or moving a house back further from a road that the government expanded. Not everything in local building codes is for safety, there is a lot of aesthetic stuff in there. Imagine being forced to rip out a 100 year old oak tree because it isn't legal to have a tree in your front yard anymore. Pools are no longer allowed, fill it in. No thanks. I'd never buy in a locality like that, might as well live in a HOA.

bhhaskin 4y ago

That's not necessarily true. It sounds like most of the upgrades are about convenience to the power company. Not anything safety related, which is why older properties are exempt. You also have to remember that it takes a lot of power to be able to change an EV in timely manner. It is easily the number one consumer of energy. Older neighborhoods utilities where never designed to do that.

jxramos 4y ago
that is interesting to consider a neighborhood scale of infrastructure and the capabilities therein. How much copper is underground in various places, is fiber internet present or on the way, something to think about for sure.
breput 4y ago
> It sounds like most of the upgrades are about convenience to the power company. Not anything safety related, which is why older properties are exempt. That is definitely not true. An 80 year old house might not even have grounded outlets, let alone GFCI or AFCI protected outlets. > You also have to remember that it takes a lot of power to be able to change an EV in timely manner Nobody worries about how many electric ovens, clothes dryers, or air conditioners are in an older neighborhood. 240V at 30A is a trivial load addition, and even if it were to become a concern, there are existing mechanisms to shed load during peak usage. Even a crude cut-off switch, like many air conditioners have, would be sufficient.
- bhhaskin 4y ago
  GFCI and AFCI are great! But a home isn't going to burst into flames or explode without them. Which is why there are exemptions. 240v at 30A is most definitely not a trivial load. Most homes have 100 amp service. That would be 30% of your homes total power capacity just for changing EV. You wouldn't be able to run AC and the dryer and charge an EV at the same time at that rate. But more importantly there is only so much power at the pole.
  - breput 4y ago

voisin 4y ago

> I'm a bit surprised this is a surprise to the landlord. Also, many of the costs here are looming anyways. It's a matter of when, not if, the electrical needs updating to meet code. I see this all the time. “Investors” buy real estate by assuming repairs and maintenance to be minimal and then pocketing every dime of excess cash created by the property. Then, over time when the windows need to be replaced or the roof or the electrical system upgraded or the HVAC improved, they don’t have any budget for it because they’ve become used to living off all of the income (despite the fact that over their 10-20 years of ownership they’ve seen rents increase dramatically). So what do they do? They list it for sale at high current market rents as if all of this deferred maintenance / Capex has been completed. This puts buyers in a position of paying a massive purchase price and having massive costs to renovate / upgrade. I hate landlords like this. Fortunately you can spot them a mile away. If the paint is peeling, then the electrical isn’t to code.

rconti 4y ago
You don't have to spot them a mile away, the article plainly says the landlord used to occupy the duplex until their family grew too large for it.
- voisin 4y ago
  I writing more generally in response to the previous commenter’s statement about being surprised.

phone8675309 4y ago

They sound like a bit of a slumlord to me based on that description.