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This is one of the many reasons why I firmly believe that hydrogen hybrid are the future to replace gas vehicles. Charging at mass scale is just not feasible no

This is one of the many reasons why I firmly believe that hydrogen hybrid are the future to replace gas vehicles. Charging at mass scale is just not feasible nor practical for most people. We can't even roll broadband out properly let alone the massive amounts of infrastructure required to deliver enough power to every home. That leaves centralized charging hubs which will quickly become overwhelmed and a massive time sink.

silisili 4y ago
Absolutely agreed. Electric cars are for the rich. And of course they say it's the future and everyone should do it, without realizing it's literally impossible. No grid in the US could come close to handling that, much less in developing countries. Not to mention due to range limitations, many people and companies are ruled out automatically. I don't think electric is bad, or should go away. But it's not meant for the masses. I think H has a brighter future worldwide.
- avtolik 4y ago
  There are so many false statements in your post, I don't even know where to start. The grid absolutely can handle EVs. The range of modern EVs is totally fine for almost all cases. The price is an issue, but even in my poor Eastern European country the number of EV exploded this year. Mainly second hand small city cars, but also others.
  - silisili 4y ago
    The same grid that can't handle heat waves without begging people to turn off AC, and even then having rolling blackouts, can handle everyone charging at night or after work at the same time, too? Almost everyone in the midwest and mountain west considers a 3 hr (one way) drive a normalish weekly or monthly event. Sure, it's not most people, but it's not some tiny outlier. I'm completely fine with being made a fool of, but I'm going to need more than 'yeah, it can do it.'
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Absolutely. The reason the grid begs you to turn off your AC is because you do it at 4 PM when there isn't enough power. EVs charge at night when demand is low.
      - Jtype 4y ago
        demand won't be low if that's when everyone is charging their EVs. lol
        organsnyder 4y ago
        Time-of-use pricing combined with scheduled charging solves this, and is already widely available.
  - readthenotes1 4y ago
    "The grid absolutely can handle EVs." Maybe yours can. In California, they were recently asked to not charge cars during certain times of the day because the power system could not support the additional load. My understanding is that California's grid could have supported the load, they just weren't able to generate the electricity required to do so.
    - avtolik 4y ago
      Almost all EV owners are charging them during the night, when the electricity demand is lower. And ok, maybe some upgrades will be needed in some places. But the situation is not so dark as the person above described it.
    - silisili 4y ago
      Keep in mind, if my math is right, CA is at like 6% electric vehicle saturation. So basically multiply that load they claim not to be able to handle by 16.
    - cycrutchfield 4y ago
      The vast majority of home EV charging happens at night. Is that when CA was telling people not to charge their cars?
      - silisili 4y ago
        Would America even function if gas stations were only open at night?
        cycrutchfield 4y ago
        If you could fill up your gas tank in your garage, probably most people would be just fine.
- Defitio 4y ago
  Huh? Are you not cooking? Our stove needs 1kw and our oven has 6kw. It's not crashing when everyone is cooking why would it crash when everyone is charging? Also it costs more (energy wise) to make H and then consume it than using the energy itself. This should probably has a relevant cost saving. Economy of scale will bring much cheaper batteries very soon. Let's say 10-20 years
  - silisili 4y ago
    Cooking is super bursty, and at variable times, and for short durations. And even then, varies by day. It's not at all the same as everyone on planet earth in the same hemisphere trying to charge their cars during peak summer AC time, between 4 and 6ish pm.
    - cycrutchfield 4y ago
      > everyone on planet earth in the same hemisphere trying to charge their cars during peak summer AC time Why do you keep parroting this nonsense? Virtually nobody charges their car at this time
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - silisili 4y ago
        I don't see how it's nonsense. Everyone keeps saying 'at night', but more realistically for most people, when they get home from work.
        frumper 4y ago
        You plug in when you get home, and your car doesn’t actually charge until it’s scheduled…sometime later at night. Mine starts at 8pm. During the heatwave I bumped it to 10pm because it doesn’t really matter to me. It’s done charging in about 3 hours.
        Defitio 4y ago
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Hydrogen is less energy per volume than gas, it requires pressure vessels rather than tanks, it's stored pressurized in vehicles and stations, it makes materials it contacts brittle, it relies on a manufacturing process that either requires natural gas production or a huge excess of electrical energy, fuel stations are huge capital costs, etc. I could go on, but it just doesn't make sense to pin hopes on hydrogen.
  - bhhaskin 4y ago
    The exact same thing can be said about EVs and then some. Batteries are less energy per volume than gas. Batteries are extremely hazardous if damaged. They have a relatively short lifespan. They are hardcore industrial hazardous waste. Power generation is likely coming from a gas power plant or even a coal power plant. The required infrastructure upgrades would be astronomical.
    - cycrutchfield 4y ago
      > Power generation is likely coming from a gas power plant or even a coal power plant. A significantly more efficient plant than an ICE.
socialismisok 4y ago
Hydrogen isn't either. The real solution is to not have so many gas vehicles. There's also no reason we can't provide charging at destinations rather than homes. Workplaces, shopping centers, etc. Transit, trains, ebikes, etc. are all significantly more efficient, less polluting, and just better solutions all around.
- bhhaskin 4y ago
  This is simply not practical out side of large urban areas in the US. Not only is distance a factor but also weather. No one is going to be riding an Ebike in 10° winter weather, and a lot of people commute 60+ miles a day. Not to mention that public transportation in a lot of areas can be... Let's just say perceived as unsafe. Hydrogen (by itself) is as clean as it can be. The byproduct is water.
  - ibotty 4y ago
    Producing it is a little different though (not necessarily, but most of the time).
    - bhhaskin 4y ago
      I agree, but it's not much different than producing the electricity required for charging EVs.
      - Robotbeat 4y ago
        It requires approximately 4 times the energy to make and distribute hydrogen as charging an EV to go the same distance.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    Hydrogen requires about 4 times the input electricity per mile driven than electricity for battery electric cars. That’s why it’s so much more expensive and almost no one uses it. And the fueling infrastructure is crazy expensive. Personally, I think if we do have hydrogen cars in the future, hydrogen cars should require a plug and an enlarged lithium battery (say, 10kWh at least). Otherwise we’ll need to produce FAR more electricity than with battery-electric cars and consumers will be on the hook for far, far higher use costs.
creakingstairs 4y ago
I do agree with you that hybrids are way to go but I'm also happy for EV go for it as well. We should be tackling this issue in every way possible, including changing urban landscapes to be more pedestrian/ public transport friendly.
zizee 4y ago
As another top level comment stated, in a lot of circumstances you can make do with charging an EV from a normal outlet. The post was mostly about the challenges with regulations/codes. For the most part it was a plea for governments to smooth over the jankiness they introduce to the whole process. Hardly an insurmountable challenge. Hydrogen is dead. Upgrading the existing electrical network gradually over time (EV adoption will be gradual) is going to be significantly easier than building a distribution network from (almost) scratch as would be required for hydrogen. To think the reverse is bonkers.
- bhhaskin 4y ago
  Why is hydrogen dead? There are a few hydrogen hybrids coming to market like the BMW i3. It has a 300 mile range and can refill in 5 minutes. Converting to hydrogen makes wayyy more sense than EV infrastructure. All of the gas station can be easily converted to hydrogen stations with different pumps and tanks. A lot cheaper than running MW of power for a EV station or upgrading neighborhoods. Then there are people that live in apartments. It isn't feasible to have a charger for every apartment at a complex. So not everyone is going to be able to charge. Even if it is a normal outlet. There is also the fire danger. I can't even imagine the amount of damage a fire cause by an EV could do to an apartment complex. Then there is the vandalism issue and mantaince problems involved. Only if you are rich dose EVs make sense. But on a mass scale they make close to zero sense.
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    > Converting to hydrogen makes wayyy more sense than EV infrastructure. All of the gas station can be easily converted to hydrogen stations with different pumps and tanks. A lot cheaper than running MW of power for a EV station or upgrading neighborhoods. Care to cite any sources?
    - mwint 4y ago
      > different pumps and tanks This sounds suspiciously like “rip out the gas station and build a new hydrogen station”
sien 4y ago
Why not electro-fuels ? Prometheus and others have plans that may come to fruition. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31264388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31264388
- BizarroLand 4y ago
  It's a good idea but the issue is convincing big money to buy in. Without billions of dollars invested this tech will just get thrown in the back with all of the other world changing technologies that need billions of dollars of investment to succeed.
Robotbeat 4y ago
Charging at scale is just way easier & cheaper than deploying hydrogen infrastructure, and I don’t think people realize just how big of a difference there is. It takes approximately 4 times the electricity (when you include liquefaction, inefficiency of electrolysis, etc) to drive the same distance with hydrogen cars as with electric cars. And Hydrogen cars get about the same range on a tank as electric cars, but even fast charging is only about $3/useful-gallon-equivalent compared to $10/useful-gallon-equivalent for hydrogen even if you have to go Fast Charge once a week or so, you’re still WAY ahead. Now if you’re talking plug-in hybrid hydrogen cars, that’s fine. You’ll be on pure electric 85% of the time anyway so the crazy expense of hydrogen fueling isn’t so bad.
- trinovantes 4y ago
  Maybe not viable for personal vehicles but I can see hydrogen fuel used for trucks/ships. Electric batteries are probably too heavy and take too long to recharge for long haul.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    Batteries are fine for semi trucks, too, actually. Even 500 miles with full payload. Transoceanic ships are a major challenge for batteries, but the scale is large enough that maybe you could use liquid hydrogen. Or just synth fuels like methane.
- bhhaskin 4y ago
  The US. department of energy is pushing to have $1 per kilogram by 2030. ($2 per kilogram by 2025). The Toyota Mirai can go 402 miles on 16.8kg of hydrogen. And it takes 5 minutes to fill up.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    The actual cost of hydrogen filling stations in California was $10/kg BEFORE the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Now it’s higher. Takes 5 minutes to fill up if the hydrogen is pre-cooled and you happen to be at the filling station (which is rare).

silisili 4y ago

Absolutely agreed. Electric cars are for the rich. And of course they say it's the future and everyone should do it, without realizing it's literally impossible. No grid in the US could come close to handling that, much less in developing countries. Not to mention due to range limitations, many people and companies are ruled out automatically. I don't think electric is bad, or should go away. But it's not meant for the masses. I think H has a brighter future worldwide.

avtolik 4y ago
There are so many false statements in your post, I don't even know where to start. The grid absolutely can handle EVs. The range of modern EVs is totally fine for almost all cases. The price is an issue, but even in my poor Eastern European country the number of EV exploded this year. Mainly second hand small city cars, but also others.
- silisili 4y ago
  The same grid that can't handle heat waves without begging people to turn off AC, and even then having rolling blackouts, can handle everyone charging at night or after work at the same time, too? Almost everyone in the midwest and mountain west considers a 3 hr (one way) drive a normalish weekly or monthly event. Sure, it's not most people, but it's not some tiny outlier. I'm completely fine with being made a fool of, but I'm going to need more than 'yeah, it can do it.'
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Absolutely. The reason the grid begs you to turn off your AC is because you do it at 4 PM when there isn't enough power. EVs charge at night when demand is low.
    - Jtype 4y ago
      demand won't be low if that's when everyone is charging their EVs. lol
      - organsnyder 4y ago
        Time-of-use pricing combined with scheduled charging solves this, and is already widely available.
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  "The grid absolutely can handle EVs." Maybe yours can. In California, they were recently asked to not charge cars during certain times of the day because the power system could not support the additional load. My understanding is that California's grid could have supported the load, they just weren't able to generate the electricity required to do so.
  - avtolik 4y ago
    Almost all EV owners are charging them during the night, when the electricity demand is lower. And ok, maybe some upgrades will be needed in some places. But the situation is not so dark as the person above described it.
  - silisili 4y ago
    Keep in mind, if my math is right, CA is at like 6% electric vehicle saturation. So basically multiply that load they claim not to be able to handle by 16.
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    The vast majority of home EV charging happens at night. Is that when CA was telling people not to charge their cars?
    - silisili 4y ago
      Would America even function if gas stations were only open at night?
      - cycrutchfield 4y ago
        If you could fill up your gas tank in your garage, probably most people would be just fine.
Defitio 4y ago
Huh? Are you not cooking? Our stove needs 1kw and our oven has 6kw. It's not crashing when everyone is cooking why would it crash when everyone is charging? Also it costs more (energy wise) to make H and then consume it than using the energy itself. This should probably has a relevant cost saving. Economy of scale will bring much cheaper batteries very soon. Let's say 10-20 years
- silisili 4y ago
  Cooking is super bursty, and at variable times, and for short durations. And even then, varies by day. It's not at all the same as everyone on planet earth in the same hemisphere trying to charge their cars during peak summer AC time, between 4 and 6ish pm.
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    > everyone on planet earth in the same hemisphere trying to charge their cars during peak summer AC time Why do you keep parroting this nonsense? Virtually nobody charges their car at this time
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - silisili 4y ago
      I don't see how it's nonsense. Everyone keeps saying 'at night', but more realistically for most people, when they get home from work.
      - frumper 4y ago
        You plug in when you get home, and your car doesn’t actually charge until it’s scheduled…sometime later at night. Mine starts at 8pm. During the heatwave I bumped it to 10pm because it doesn’t really matter to me. It’s done charging in about 3 hours.
      - Defitio 4y ago
socialismisok 4y ago
Hydrogen is less energy per volume than gas, it requires pressure vessels rather than tanks, it's stored pressurized in vehicles and stations, it makes materials it contacts brittle, it relies on a manufacturing process that either requires natural gas production or a huge excess of electrical energy, fuel stations are huge capital costs, etc. I could go on, but it just doesn't make sense to pin hopes on hydrogen.
- bhhaskin 4y ago
  The exact same thing can be said about EVs and then some. Batteries are less energy per volume than gas. Batteries are extremely hazardous if damaged. They have a relatively short lifespan. They are hardcore industrial hazardous waste. Power generation is likely coming from a gas power plant or even a coal power plant. The required infrastructure upgrades would be astronomical.
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    > Power generation is likely coming from a gas power plant or even a coal power plant. A significantly more efficient plant than an ICE.

socialismisok 4y ago

Hydrogen isn't either. The real solution is to not have so many gas vehicles. There's also no reason we can't provide charging at destinations rather than homes. Workplaces, shopping centers, etc. Transit, trains, ebikes, etc. are all significantly more efficient, less polluting, and just better solutions all around.

bhhaskin 4y ago
This is simply not practical out side of large urban areas in the US. Not only is distance a factor but also weather. No one is going to be riding an Ebike in 10° winter weather, and a lot of people commute 60+ miles a day. Not to mention that public transportation in a lot of areas can be... Let's just say perceived as unsafe. Hydrogen (by itself) is as clean as it can be. The byproduct is water.
- ibotty 4y ago
  Producing it is a little different though (not necessarily, but most of the time).
  - bhhaskin 4y ago
    I agree, but it's not much different than producing the electricity required for charging EVs.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      It requires approximately 4 times the energy to make and distribute hydrogen as charging an EV to go the same distance.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Hydrogen requires about 4 times the input electricity per mile driven than electricity for battery electric cars. That’s why it’s so much more expensive and almost no one uses it. And the fueling infrastructure is crazy expensive. Personally, I think if we do have hydrogen cars in the future, hydrogen cars should require a plug and an enlarged lithium battery (say, 10kWh at least). Otherwise we’ll need to produce FAR more electricity than with battery-electric cars and consumers will be on the hook for far, far higher use costs.

creakingstairs 4y ago

I do agree with you that hybrids are way to go but I'm also happy for EV go for it as well. We should be tackling this issue in every way possible, including changing urban landscapes to be more pedestrian/ public transport friendly.

zizee 4y ago

As another top level comment stated, in a lot of circumstances you can make do with charging an EV from a normal outlet. The post was mostly about the challenges with regulations/codes. For the most part it was a plea for governments to smooth over the jankiness they introduce to the whole process. Hardly an insurmountable challenge. Hydrogen is dead. Upgrading the existing electrical network gradually over time (EV adoption will be gradual) is going to be significantly easier than building a distribution network from (almost) scratch as would be required for hydrogen. To think the reverse is bonkers.

bhhaskin 4y ago
Why is hydrogen dead? There are a few hydrogen hybrids coming to market like the BMW i3. It has a 300 mile range and can refill in 5 minutes. Converting to hydrogen makes wayyy more sense than EV infrastructure. All of the gas station can be easily converted to hydrogen stations with different pumps and tanks. A lot cheaper than running MW of power for a EV station or upgrading neighborhoods. Then there are people that live in apartments. It isn't feasible to have a charger for every apartment at a complex. So not everyone is going to be able to charge. Even if it is a normal outlet. There is also the fire danger. I can't even imagine the amount of damage a fire cause by an EV could do to an apartment complex. Then there is the vandalism issue and mantaince problems involved. Only if you are rich dose EVs make sense. But on a mass scale they make close to zero sense.
- cycrutchfield 4y ago
  > Converting to hydrogen makes wayyy more sense than EV infrastructure. All of the gas station can be easily converted to hydrogen stations with different pumps and tanks. A lot cheaper than running MW of power for a EV station or upgrading neighborhoods. Care to cite any sources?
  - mwint 4y ago
    > different pumps and tanks This sounds suspiciously like “rip out the gas station and build a new hydrogen station”

sien 4y ago

Why not electro-fuels ? Prometheus and others have plans that may come to fruition. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31264388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31264388

BizarroLand 4y ago
It's a good idea but the issue is convincing big money to buy in. Without billions of dollars invested this tech will just get thrown in the back with all of the other world changing technologies that need billions of dollars of investment to succeed.

Robotbeat 4y ago

Charging at scale is just way easier & cheaper than deploying hydrogen infrastructure, and I don’t think people realize just how big of a difference there is. It takes approximately 4 times the electricity (when you include liquefaction, inefficiency of electrolysis, etc) to drive the same distance with hydrogen cars as with electric cars. And Hydrogen cars get about the same range on a tank as electric cars, but even fast charging is only about $3/useful-gallon-equivalent compared to $10/useful-gallon-equivalent for hydrogen even if you have to go Fast Charge once a week or so, you’re still WAY ahead. Now if you’re talking plug-in hybrid hydrogen cars, that’s fine. You’ll be on pure electric 85% of the time anyway so the crazy expense of hydrogen fueling isn’t so bad.

trinovantes 4y ago
Maybe not viable for personal vehicles but I can see hydrogen fuel used for trucks/ships. Electric batteries are probably too heavy and take too long to recharge for long haul.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Batteries are fine for semi trucks, too, actually. Even 500 miles with full payload. Transoceanic ships are a major challenge for batteries, but the scale is large enough that maybe you could use liquid hydrogen. Or just synth fuels like methane.
bhhaskin 4y ago
The US. department of energy is pushing to have $1 per kilogram by 2030. ($2 per kilogram by 2025). The Toyota Mirai can go 402 miles on 16.8kg of hydrogen. And it takes 5 minutes to fill up.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  The actual cost of hydrogen filling stations in California was $10/kg BEFORE the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Now it’s higher. Takes 5 minutes to fill up if the hydrogen is pre-cooled and you happen to be at the filling station (which is rare).