14 ms·

I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

64 points by karlding 4y ago

mjevans 4y ago
TL;DR improving a property triggers mandates like bringing the whole thing up to code (I'm personally OK with this generally) and also the potential to shoulder ore share costs to improve the surrounding infrastructure (I'm against this, it's similar to the problems broadband rollouts face when attaching to aging poles in that if they find an issue it's suddenly their problem to pay for). IMO the solution is top down and should require public planning to scale infrastructure to desired standards in a planned way. It should also require updates to modern code rather than allowing older and probably unsafe (code changed for good reason) buildings around until they fail (usually in a catastrophic way). It's also bad that there aren't good ways to save for such updates, far too often short term needs prevail rather than doing things right the first time. I'm not sure if taxes to encourage and fund improvements or ways of saving money tax free towards major expenditures (which are then taxed at that time) are better, but there should be some process.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Honestly, if you are renting out a unit as a landlord, you should be required to keep the property in compliance with code.
  - benj111 4y ago
    Assuming 'code' is equivalent to UK building regs. This is very onerous. Eg if the door lintel is made from wood. Does it pass certification to say it can take that weight. To find out if the lintel is even wood requires removing plaster. What happens if you wanted to tighten the specs on concrete? Are you going to tear down every pre existing concrete building because they can't demonstrate it was made to the new specs.
  - zizee 4y ago
    Sounds good, but just don't be surprised if this results in more expensive rents, and less affordable housing being built.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      That’s exactly what the article author expected to do, they said they wanted to make their rental properties more expensive. No one’s installing anything in a rental unit out of the goodness of their heart. They’re literally seeking rent. At least they should be expected to keep up their end of the bargain.
    - smileysteve 4y ago
      the "the house is burning down and firemen will die" discount, along with the "oops I dropped the hair dryer in the sink and died without ground faults" discount Or the "the microwave blew a fuse that killed my work computer, so I lost my job" discount the "the pilot light doesn't work well, so carbon monoxide" discount. The "stairwell is only loose here" discount, "the deck is fine for 2 people to stand in that corner" discount We should have higher standards for "investment" operations than 30 years out of safety standards
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      New built housing already has to comply with the latest codes. Having slightly higher rent is worth it for safety.
      - zizee 4y ago
        Perhaps. But this stuff does raise the minimum amount it takes to build, which in turn makes developers less likely to invest in building affordable housing.
bhhaskin 4y ago
This is one of the many reasons why I firmly believe that hydrogen hybrid are the future to replace gas vehicles. Charging at mass scale is just not feasible nor practical for most people. We can't even roll broadband out properly let alone the massive amounts of infrastructure required to deliver enough power to every home. That leaves centralized charging hubs which will quickly become overwhelmed and a massive time sink.
- silisili 4y ago
  Absolutely agreed. Electric cars are for the rich. And of course they say it's the future and everyone should do it, without realizing it's literally impossible. No grid in the US could come close to handling that, much less in developing countries. Not to mention due to range limitations, many people and companies are ruled out automatically. I don't think electric is bad, or should go away. But it's not meant for the masses. I think H has a brighter future worldwide.
  - avtolik 4y ago
    There are so many false statements in your post, I don't even know where to start. The grid absolutely can handle EVs. The range of modern EVs is totally fine for almost all cases. The price is an issue, but even in my poor Eastern European country the number of EV exploded this year. Mainly second hand small city cars, but also others.
    - silisili 4y ago
      The same grid that can't handle heat waves without begging people to turn off AC, and even then having rolling blackouts, can handle everyone charging at night or after work at the same time, too? Almost everyone in the midwest and mountain west considers a 3 hr (one way) drive a normalish weekly or monthly event. Sure, it's not most people, but it's not some tiny outlier. I'm completely fine with being made a fool of, but I'm going to need more than 'yeah, it can do it.'
      - 4y ago
socialismisok 4y ago
"I'd have to bring my electrical systems up to code and that's expensive for my 80 year old house" Well, yeah. I suppose it would be. I'm a bit surprised this is a surprise to the landlord. Also, many of the costs here are looming anyways. It's a matter of when, not if, the electrical needs updating to meet code.
- sschueller 4y ago
  Grandfathering in electrical codes seems quite dangerous. At some point wouldn't the city just require it or deem the property unsafe?
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    I agree, especially if you are a landlord.
    - cammikebrown 4y ago
      They don’t because (in places like California at least) their property taxes go up if they do any significant upgrades
      - LinuxBender 4y ago
        That is the same in my state of Wyoming. The assessors visit my property every year and ask what improvements I've made. Two weeks after I bought the property they showed up and went through a checklist with me that detailed everything they knew about the house. I did something taboo and brought them into the house because they listed something as "fair" that was "bad". It's funny though, all of this is just for tax revenue. They don't care about electrical wiring, plumbing, etc... I am told that when a house is first built they will inspect the electrical but I do not believe them. I've had to fix dozens of incorrectly wired sockets and really janky wiring in the circuit breaker panel and missing grounding connections.
    - dagw 4y ago
      On the other hand, as a landlord it's not your health and safety you're gambling with. As long as your insurance company doesn't complain, spending a lot of money to decrease the risk of fire doesn't make financial sense.
seibelj 4y ago
"Almost 1/3 of San Francisco charging stations are broken" https://www.electrive.com/2022/05/13/almost-1-3-of-san-francisco-charging-stations-are-duds/ https://www.electrive.com/2022/05/13/almost-1-3-of-san-franc... There are... a lot of problems yet to be solved in the perfect electrified future. I hope it happens, if only to move all the pollution from cars to the power plants far away. I have found it hard to discuss the negative / illogical aspects with true believers, which is normally fine, except now the developed world is paying a shitload of taxes to fund the dreams of true believers - logic and economics be damned.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  Seems low maybe the other 1/3rd are in bad locations
breput 4y ago
The electrical code has evolved not only to enrich electricians, but also to provide a safer environment for the occupants of the buildings. So noting/complaining about having to upgrade an 82 year old rental duplex to modern standards because of electric car charging is a little disingenuous. That wiring is already past the end of life and ought to be updated for the safety of the occupants. But I wouldn't be surprised if the 2023 (maybe 2026) NEC will require at least 30A 240V service to garages with electrical service.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  That's a valid argument to make to a home owner, but for a landlord that's potentially all of their profits, and besides, it's not theirs or their family's lives at risk from the old wiring. It still works right? Great, let's add another excuse to increase the rent and we're golden!
- xeromal 4y ago
  I don't think they were complaining until they realized they may be liable for upgrading the neighborhood's infrastructure too which seems ridiculous.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Note that states can always override NEC requirements. For example, Texas overrode the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers. (Learned this when wiring my garage with a 30A plug for my EV)
  - mindslight 4y ago
    > the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers I haven't been keeping up on all the new NEC requirements for shoving xxCI's in various places, but I can see no rationale for this one. There is no such thing as 240 volts to ground in a home - it's all 120V (that's RMS, it's 170V peak), with a "240" outlet being both line phases (say +120 and -120 at a given point in time, giving a differential of 240). Touching a residential "240 volt" line for a dryer or stove will give you the same exact shock as touching a common 120 volt line. The risk of 240 volt circuits is that they are generally of higher ampacity, and will thus have a much higher arc current. A GFCI does absolutely nothing to mitigate this! Honestly they would have been better mandating the garage 120v receptacles be GFCI even though they're above grade, because people tend to do things like plug extension cords into them for use outside. 240 volt receptacles generally have a dedicated purpose, like a car charger.
natch 4y ago
Profanity alert. Don’t read this if you are sensitive. You. Do. Fucking. Not. Need. An EV charger, to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet. It was fine. Yes, on days where you do big trips, there’s a supercharger visit, But normally, an outlet is totally sufficient. An installed charger does add some very, very minor convenience (no adapter, big deal… not worth the cost). And if it needs to be shared and bills split, that’s different. But for basic charging no special installation is needed as long as you can reach.
- jnsaff2 4y ago
  I know a person who has done this with their tesla for like 6 years and to the point that they will not plug their tesla into anything more powerful because they think that charging it at 2kW is keeping their battery pristine. I don't think they realize that by pressing that accelerator pedal they can load the battery with ~300kW and therefore 2kW or 11kW or 22kW charging makes no effing difference. Their daily commute is less than 100km so they have no problems charging the batts with their granny charger. In our household we have one to four ~90% capacity commutes per week and being able to always get a full charge with the 11kW charger helps a lot. So YMMV. I agree with you. Especially agree with the point that people should analyze their usage, maybe get some experience living with an EV and never give up on the first mental hurdle without even trying.
- IndrekR 4y ago
  If you buy electricity at the (hourly) market rate, you want to charge when it is cheapest and charge reasonably fast. On a typical 11kW home charger here in EU, that means about 6 hours for full charge or 1..2 hours for daily top-up. All the benefits for buying the electricity at hourly demand based rate disappear when full charging times approach 24h. This has two benefits: it is cheaper to charge and the grid works more efficiently — price is lower when the demand is low and/or production is high.
  - 4y ago
eyelidlessness 4y ago
> and charge higher rents Yeah no thanks.
jhoelzel 4y ago
Im just rebuilding my own house from the last century. You as a landlord did not upgrade your eletrical system and the current one is probably held together by straws ;) The title should be "what? You do really need a pesky netural wire for EV charging, who knew"?
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  There are ways to fake a neutral wire for EV charging. Not recommending it, but I found out how to do it when learning how to charge my EVs using an inexpensive pure sine wave inverter (using the 12V system of the other EV or some other vehicle in case I needed a little charge to get to the nearest charging station).
FatalLogic 4y ago
As an interim solution, the property owner might be able to install large batteries (for example Powerwall) that renters could use to charge their vehicles. The batteries could be charged continuously, without overloading the old electrical service Probably this wouldn't be enough if every renter was a heavy EV user, but it could be good for a few years, and also would be useful for power outages and to take advantage of off-peak rates in future Metering and payment would be an issue, but it should be possible to find a solution for that
natch 4y ago
You do not need an EV charger to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet. It was fine. With this arrangement, yes, on days where you do big trips, there’s a supercharger visit, But normally, an outlet is totally sufficient. An installed charger does add some very, very minor convenience (no adapter, big deal… not worth the cost). And if it needs to be shared and bills split, that’s different. But for basic charging no special installation is needed as long as you can reach. I made this second copy of my comment because while profanity (in the other comment) makes some people take notice, it gives others the excuse they need to tune out the message, which is the same for both comments: You don't need to install a charger.
- lnsru 4y ago
  I had a neighbor with Tesla and he was happy to charge his car only on superchargers. Today in Germany all fast chargers cost at least 2x more than electricity at home making electric vehicles barely economically viable. My assumption: real car with 20 kWh/100km consumption comparing to 6-8l/100km diesel similar sized car.
- seattle_spring 4y ago
  Spending 30+ minutes not including added drive time to go to a supercharger everytime I want to go to the city or on a hike is not even close to a "very, very minor inconvenience." Speak for yourself, as I would bet money that the majority of EV owners find significant value and benefit from at-home L2 charging.
  - natch 4y ago
    It’s hardly like that at all though. 300+ miles of range is plenty to get to a nearby city and back for most people, with or without supercharging. The “very, very minor inconvenience” I referred to is the non-issue of having to find something to coil the cord onto when not in use, solved by most installed chargers which give you an hanging hook. BFD.
technotarek 4y ago
As a comparison, we just did a similar project in Washington DC for our ~105 year old row house. It cost us ~$2500 including permits and all materials except that actual EV charger unit (blanking on what that’s called). But that is BEFORE federal+DC tax credits worth about $1k. Situations differ. Local policies and code differ. For a couple thousand dollars, my car will be fully sun powered (from our 11Kwh rooftop solar system). Gas savings over the life of the car should more than make up for it. (We had previously upgraded our panel to handle more load and offer more slots when we renovated, but even that was under $3k.)
oceanplexian 4y ago
I lived in a ranch-style home in California. Literally added a new breaker, ran 30’ of Romex rated for 50A, and wired up an EV charger in about 2-3 hours. It’s not rocket science. Now, obviously some panels don’t have the space, or the service to the house isn’t enough amps but if that’s a case why aren’t you upgrading a 50 year-old electrical panel anyway? It sounds like OP had a bunch of deferred electrical maintenance to begin with but wants to blame it on EVs.
- breput 4y ago
  You're not wrong, and I have wired my own 60A circuit, but it is not trivial either and it is right at the edge of the above-average DIY capability to do it safely.
- oliwarner 4y ago
  > It’s not rocket science And an earth rod, right? Anyone can stick a breaker in, run some cable, but it takes the rocket scientists to consider neutral fault conditions, causing potential between your home, charger, car and literal earth. It might not apply to you. Your charger might have built in protection (many don't) or your supply might be grounded to the literal earth… but this is why we have building regs and people to follow them. Even if you do the work, it's worth a chat with a qualified electrician, and to have them inspect your work. It could save your life.
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    If they ran the standard 4 wire cable one of the wires will be a grounding wire that goes back to the panel. The panel should already have an earth ground and grounding rod(s). Adding a second grounding rod anywhere else would violate code in most states and potentially create a grounding loop and fire hazard. To correctly add more grounding rods in multiple locations would require a common ground bus where all grounding rods are inter-connected to an oversized grounding bus cable or bus bar that is independent of the circuit panel wiring. This is rare to find in a home however. This is more common in industrial buildings that have high power and high voltage equipment. In this setup every grounding rod has to be independently tested with a megger prior to being connected to the bus.
dmitrygr 4y ago
We (the HOA) tried to do this in a townhouse complex (where I own one unit) in Mountain View. The story went similarly, except the last step. Instead of telling us that we’ll need to relocate meters, the utility told us that they consider our neighborhood “complete” and they will not be running a thicker line to our buildings to allow for the now-code-required 125A panels. So thanks to their laziness, we can never ever do any electrical work in any unit, since getting permits requires upgrades to current code, and the electrical company won’t do their part no matter what, and without their part, compliance with current code is impossible.
gorkish 4y ago
Siemens has a new product that basically bypasses this entire problem by installing as a mezzanine connector into the power meter. Called the ConnectDER https://connectder.com/ https://connectder.com/ Regardless of what people will continue to claim, a 110V 15A outlet is really not enough. It's possible if you live your life on a strict schedule, drive very little, are very diligent about keeping your car plugged in, and don't mind having to go to a public charger routinely to sit for half an hour because you couldn't be bothered to hire an electrician one time to make the situation better for you in any possible way.
- mbushey 4y ago
  Really? I have a Nissan Leaf and a Tesla Model Y. I alternate using the same outlet to keep both of them fully charged. The Leaf only charges at home, and I only use Superchargers for the Y when I'm on road trips. I already have 220V in the garage, it's just not worth spending a few hundred on a 220v charger as 110v meets my needs completely. The only reason that I might go 220v would be if I install solar panels and want to dump more power into the cars during daylight hours.
- turtlebits 4y ago
  It all depends on your use case. EV's aren't for everyone. I charge at work, and L1 charging was fine for me when I was WFH during covid. I don't bother using outside chargers because L2 is too slow for short trips and fast charging is expensive.
- aeternum 4y ago
  110V 15A is plenty for many users. Like anything else, driving range needed is a bell-curve. You can make the situation much better for many with just access to 110V.
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  Now obviously driving mileage is normally distributed. But that said, the average American drives ~ 12,785 mi / year [1]. This means, on average, 35.03 mi / day. If a 110V/15A outlet can offer 1.65 kW, and we assume a conservative 3 mi / kW, then you only need to charge for 7.08 hrs to offset your daily driving. Assuming 8 hours a day for charging, as long as you drive less than 40 mi / day you should charge your whole day of driving up, and even if you can't you're only going to use a bit more of the battery. This doesn't seem to be particularly strict or diligent and it's based around average driving mileage. Our house came with an L2 charger box, but we drive much less than average in the US and it feels wasted on us. I run the charger once every 2-3 weeks or so and I'm fine. [1]: https://smartfinancial.com/average-miles-driven-per-year https://smartfinancial.com/average-miles-driven-per-year
foogazi 4y ago
> As EVs become more common, more landlords will be driven to invest in vehicle charging. Can EVs become more common without tenants being able to charge them ?
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Yes. Obviously, it depends on the tenant's daily commutes especially, but at today's ranges a giant median chunk of US daily commuters could fast charge only once a week and meet their commute needs easily, with no other charges in between. Home chargers are incredibly useful and a game changer, but also destination chargers (chargers at work or grocery stores or malls or other places where cars are parked for multiple hours) are also similarly game changers. Just having one or the other reduces (and in some cases eliminates) the need for any "fast" charges. But EVs themselves don't "require" any specific charging configuration and compared to gas have more options than ever before with home and destination options.
- acuozzo 4y ago
  Yes, if EVs are produced with standardized modular battery arrays. Stop by the "gas" station, open up the hood, grab your drained battery cell cards, bring them in, and pay for fully-charged cell cards to swap in. The "gas" station can then charge the cards you brought and give them to another customer. It's worth noting that, under this scheme, battery life can be monitored and manufacturers can recycle/replace EOL cards when the "gas" station sends them in. No more waiting for the car to be charged. No more changes to homes. Just use the existing infrastructure! It's a win-win.
  - ev1 4y ago
    Two wheelers already do this in many places. Gogoro is one option where you just pull up to a station, put your old battery in, and it'll tell you which fully charged one to pull out. If the station detects bad health or battery life it'll recycle/replace it the next time someone visits.
- smileysteve 4y ago
  Yes. Gas stations near me are installing fast chargers. ice driving Tenants currently have to go to gas stations.
puffoflogic 4y ago
Remember, if you aren't wealthy enough to be able to make these kinds of changes or buy a new home which doesn't need them, that means you're in the pocket of big oil. Or something, idk.
chiph 4y ago
I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That would be much cheaper. I plan to add a charger to my rental property, either when my current tenant buys an EV or when they move out (to avoid disrupting them). The home is fairly new and was built with 200 amp service so I don't anticipate any permit problems. The idea is to differentiate my property in the marketplace and justify a higher rent. What I don't want is a tenant running a homemade 240v cable to the outlet for the electric clothes dryer and manually plugging/unplugging back & forth. That's unsafe. [1] The fire department will pull the meter when they arrive and start fighting a fire, so they aren't spraying water on live circuits.
- mindslight 4y ago
  From the article: > We recently decided to update our duplex’s electric system. I'm left wondering what exactly they meant by "update our duplex's electric system" if they did not mean put in a new service, new main panel, and bring the branch circuits up to current code? Like what were they actually envisioning doing, that did not include redoing the branch circuits? If this story were written with the electric vehicle precipitating the chain of events, I can see how that would be frustrating. But it seems they set out to do the updates, and are now complaining about doing the updates? The utility's position seems wholly unreasonable though. If this weren't a rental property, the right answer would be to DIY the install and make the utility deal with the additional load on the distribution infrastructure.
- quickthrowman 4y ago
  > I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That would be much cheaper. You’re correct, you don’t need to move the panels, but you do need to provide a emergency service disconnect on the exterior of the house. You could leave all the existing branch wiring in place, assuming it is up to code, and refeed the existing panels from the new service entrance location. The relevant code section in the NEC is 230.85, added in 2020. A large portion of the cost is new panels with AFCI and GFCI breakers, they’re $50-100 each for a 15A 1p breaker, probably $1500-2500 for each panel.
tuatoru 4y ago
Back when ICE cars first came along, owners bought cans of gasoline from their local general store and stored them in their stables (now garages). They recharged their cars at home. This seems like the era we are now in with respect to electric vehicles. There are some EV fleets for which charging downtime is not palatable (taxis in busy cities, for example). Swappable batteries have been developed and are being used by some of those fleets. The next step is standardization of swappable batteries, and divestment of battery swapping and maintenance into a separate company from fleet operation. The third step is the separate company offering services to the public. As vehicles built for these fleets are sold used, they will spread to households. Then we are back to "gas" stations/service stations. The logic seems sound. Rather than having to build charging complexity into every vehicle, and supply tens of millions or hundreds of millions of chargers, charging can be done at merely hundreds of thousands of charging stations, with the customer having a three minute trip through something like a car wash booth.

64 points by karlding 4y ago

TL;DR improving a property triggers mandates like bringing the whole thing up to code (I'm personally OK with this generally) and also the potential to shoulder ore share costs to improve the surrounding infrastructure (I'm against this, it's similar to the problems broadband rollouts face when attaching to aging poles in that if they find an issue it's suddenly their problem to pay for). IMO the solution is top down and should require public planning to scale infrastructure to desired standards in a planned way. It should also require updates to modern code rather than allowing older and probably unsafe (code changed for good reason) buildings around until they fail (usually in a catastrophic way). It's also bad that there aren't good ways to save for such updates, far too often short term needs prevail rather than doing things right the first time. I'm not sure if taxes to encourage and fund improvements or ways of saving money tax free towards major expenditures (which are then taxed at that time) are better, but there should be some process.

socialismisok 4y ago
Honestly, if you are renting out a unit as a landlord, you should be required to keep the property in compliance with code.
- benj111 4y ago
  Assuming 'code' is equivalent to UK building regs. This is very onerous. Eg if the door lintel is made from wood. Does it pass certification to say it can take that weight. To find out if the lintel is even wood requires removing plaster. What happens if you wanted to tighten the specs on concrete? Are you going to tear down every pre existing concrete building because they can't demonstrate it was made to the new specs.
- zizee 4y ago
  Sounds good, but just don't be surprised if this results in more expensive rents, and less affordable housing being built.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    That’s exactly what the article author expected to do, they said they wanted to make their rental properties more expensive. No one’s installing anything in a rental unit out of the goodness of their heart. They’re literally seeking rent. At least they should be expected to keep up their end of the bargain.
  - smileysteve 4y ago
    the "the house is burning down and firemen will die" discount, along with the "oops I dropped the hair dryer in the sink and died without ground faults" discount Or the "the microwave blew a fuse that killed my work computer, so I lost my job" discount the "the pilot light doesn't work well, so carbon monoxide" discount. The "stairwell is only loose here" discount, "the deck is fine for 2 people to stand in that corner" discount We should have higher standards for "investment" operations than 30 years out of safety standards
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    New built housing already has to comply with the latest codes. Having slightly higher rent is worth it for safety.
    - zizee 4y ago
      Perhaps. But this stuff does raise the minimum amount it takes to build, which in turn makes developers less likely to invest in building affordable housing.

bhhaskin 4y ago

This is one of the many reasons why I firmly believe that hydrogen hybrid are the future to replace gas vehicles. Charging at mass scale is just not feasible nor practical for most people. We can't even roll broadband out properly let alone the massive amounts of infrastructure required to deliver enough power to every home. That leaves centralized charging hubs which will quickly become overwhelmed and a massive time sink.

silisili 4y ago
Absolutely agreed. Electric cars are for the rich. And of course they say it's the future and everyone should do it, without realizing it's literally impossible. No grid in the US could come close to handling that, much less in developing countries. Not to mention due to range limitations, many people and companies are ruled out automatically. I don't think electric is bad, or should go away. But it's not meant for the masses. I think H has a brighter future worldwide.
- avtolik 4y ago
  There are so many false statements in your post, I don't even know where to start. The grid absolutely can handle EVs. The range of modern EVs is totally fine for almost all cases. The price is an issue, but even in my poor Eastern European country the number of EV exploded this year. Mainly second hand small city cars, but also others.
  - silisili 4y ago
    The same grid that can't handle heat waves without begging people to turn off AC, and even then having rolling blackouts, can handle everyone charging at night or after work at the same time, too? Almost everyone in the midwest and mountain west considers a 3 hr (one way) drive a normalish weekly or monthly event. Sure, it's not most people, but it's not some tiny outlier. I'm completely fine with being made a fool of, but I'm going to need more than 'yeah, it can do it.'
    - 4y ago

socialismisok 4y ago

"I'd have to bring my electrical systems up to code and that's expensive for my 80 year old house" Well, yeah. I suppose it would be. I'm a bit surprised this is a surprise to the landlord. Also, many of the costs here are looming anyways. It's a matter of when, not if, the electrical needs updating to meet code.

sschueller 4y ago
Grandfathering in electrical codes seems quite dangerous. At some point wouldn't the city just require it or deem the property unsafe?
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I agree, especially if you are a landlord.
  - cammikebrown 4y ago
    They don’t because (in places like California at least) their property taxes go up if they do any significant upgrades
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      That is the same in my state of Wyoming. The assessors visit my property every year and ask what improvements I've made. Two weeks after I bought the property they showed up and went through a checklist with me that detailed everything they knew about the house. I did something taboo and brought them into the house because they listed something as "fair" that was "bad". It's funny though, all of this is just for tax revenue. They don't care about electrical wiring, plumbing, etc... I am told that when a house is first built they will inspect the electrical but I do not believe them. I've had to fix dozens of incorrectly wired sockets and really janky wiring in the circuit breaker panel and missing grounding connections.
  - dagw 4y ago
    On the other hand, as a landlord it's not your health and safety you're gambling with. As long as your insurance company doesn't complain, spending a lot of money to decrease the risk of fire doesn't make financial sense.

seibelj 4y ago

"Almost 1/3 of San Francisco charging stations are broken" https://www.electrive.com/2022/05/13/almost-1-3-of-san-francisco-charging-stations-are-duds/ https://www.electrive.com/2022/05/13/almost-1-3-of-san-franc... There are... a lot of problems yet to be solved in the perfect electrified future. I hope it happens, if only to move all the pollution from cars to the power plants far away. I have found it hard to discuss the negative / illogical aspects with true believers, which is normally fine, except now the developed world is paying a shitload of taxes to fund the dreams of true believers - logic and economics be damned.

rdtwo 4y ago
Seems low maybe the other 1/3rd are in bad locations

breput 4y ago

The electrical code has evolved not only to enrich electricians, but also to provide a safer environment for the occupants of the buildings. So noting/complaining about having to upgrade an 82 year old rental duplex to modern standards because of electric car charging is a little disingenuous. That wiring is already past the end of life and ought to be updated for the safety of the occupants. But I wouldn't be surprised if the 2023 (maybe 2026) NEC will require at least 30A 240V service to garages with electrical service.

alias_neo 4y ago
That's a valid argument to make to a home owner, but for a landlord that's potentially all of their profits, and besides, it's not theirs or their family's lives at risk from the old wiring. It still works right? Great, let's add another excuse to increase the rent and we're golden!
xeromal 4y ago
I don't think they were complaining until they realized they may be liable for upgrading the neighborhood's infrastructure too which seems ridiculous.
bdcravens 4y ago
Note that states can always override NEC requirements. For example, Texas overrode the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers. (Learned this when wiring my garage with a 30A plug for my EV)
- mindslight 4y ago
  > the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers I haven't been keeping up on all the new NEC requirements for shoving xxCI's in various places, but I can see no rationale for this one. There is no such thing as 240 volts to ground in a home - it's all 120V (that's RMS, it's 170V peak), with a "240" outlet being both line phases (say +120 and -120 at a given point in time, giving a differential of 240). Touching a residential "240 volt" line for a dryer or stove will give you the same exact shock as touching a common 120 volt line. The risk of 240 volt circuits is that they are generally of higher ampacity, and will thus have a much higher arc current. A GFCI does absolutely nothing to mitigate this! Honestly they would have been better mandating the garage 120v receptacles be GFCI even though they're above grade, because people tend to do things like plug extension cords into them for use outside. 240 volt receptacles generally have a dedicated purpose, like a car charger.

natch 4y ago

Profanity alert. Don’t read this if you are sensitive. You. Do. Fucking. Not. Need. An EV charger, to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet. It was fine. Yes, on days where you do big trips, there’s a supercharger visit, But normally, an outlet is totally sufficient. An installed charger does add some very, very minor convenience (no adapter, big deal… not worth the cost). And if it needs to be shared and bills split, that’s different. But for basic charging no special installation is needed as long as you can reach.

jnsaff2 4y ago
I know a person who has done this with their tesla for like 6 years and to the point that they will not plug their tesla into anything more powerful because they think that charging it at 2kW is keeping their battery pristine. I don't think they realize that by pressing that accelerator pedal they can load the battery with ~300kW and therefore 2kW or 11kW or 22kW charging makes no effing difference. Their daily commute is less than 100km so they have no problems charging the batts with their granny charger. In our household we have one to four ~90% capacity commutes per week and being able to always get a full charge with the 11kW charger helps a lot. So YMMV. I agree with you. Especially agree with the point that people should analyze their usage, maybe get some experience living with an EV and never give up on the first mental hurdle without even trying.
IndrekR 4y ago
If you buy electricity at the (hourly) market rate, you want to charge when it is cheapest and charge reasonably fast. On a typical 11kW home charger here in EU, that means about 6 hours for full charge or 1..2 hours for daily top-up. All the benefits for buying the electricity at hourly demand based rate disappear when full charging times approach 24h. This has two benefits: it is cheaper to charge and the grid works more efficiently — price is lower when the demand is low and/or production is high.
- 4y ago

eyelidlessness 4y ago

> and charge higher rents Yeah no thanks.

jhoelzel 4y ago

Im just rebuilding my own house from the last century. You as a landlord did not upgrade your eletrical system and the current one is probably held together by straws ;) The title should be "what? You do really need a pesky netural wire for EV charging, who knew"?

Robotbeat 4y ago
There are ways to fake a neutral wire for EV charging. Not recommending it, but I found out how to do it when learning how to charge my EVs using an inexpensive pure sine wave inverter (using the 12V system of the other EV or some other vehicle in case I needed a little charge to get to the nearest charging station).

FatalLogic 4y ago

As an interim solution, the property owner might be able to install large batteries (for example Powerwall) that renters could use to charge their vehicles. The batteries could be charged continuously, without overloading the old electrical service Probably this wouldn't be enough if every renter was a heavy EV user, but it could be good for a few years, and also would be useful for power outages and to take advantage of off-peak rates in future Metering and payment would be an issue, but it should be possible to find a solution for that

natch 4y ago

You do not need an EV charger to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet. It was fine. With this arrangement, yes, on days where you do big trips, there’s a supercharger visit, But normally, an outlet is totally sufficient. An installed charger does add some very, very minor convenience (no adapter, big deal… not worth the cost). And if it needs to be shared and bills split, that’s different. But for basic charging no special installation is needed as long as you can reach. I made this second copy of my comment because while profanity (in the other comment) makes some people take notice, it gives others the excuse they need to tune out the message, which is the same for both comments: You don't need to install a charger.

lnsru 4y ago
I had a neighbor with Tesla and he was happy to charge his car only on superchargers. Today in Germany all fast chargers cost at least 2x more than electricity at home making electric vehicles barely economically viable. My assumption: real car with 20 kWh/100km consumption comparing to 6-8l/100km diesel similar sized car.
seattle_spring 4y ago
Spending 30+ minutes not including added drive time to go to a supercharger everytime I want to go to the city or on a hike is not even close to a "very, very minor inconvenience." Speak for yourself, as I would bet money that the majority of EV owners find significant value and benefit from at-home L2 charging.
- natch 4y ago
  It’s hardly like that at all though. 300+ miles of range is plenty to get to a nearby city and back for most people, with or without supercharging. The “very, very minor inconvenience” I referred to is the non-issue of having to find something to coil the cord onto when not in use, solved by most installed chargers which give you an hanging hook. BFD.

technotarek 4y ago

As a comparison, we just did a similar project in Washington DC for our ~105 year old row house. It cost us ~$2500 including permits and all materials except that actual EV charger unit (blanking on what that’s called). But that is BEFORE federal+DC tax credits worth about $1k. Situations differ. Local policies and code differ. For a couple thousand dollars, my car will be fully sun powered (from our 11Kwh rooftop solar system). Gas savings over the life of the car should more than make up for it. (We had previously upgraded our panel to handle more load and offer more slots when we renovated, but even that was under $3k.)

oceanplexian 4y ago

I lived in a ranch-style home in California. Literally added a new breaker, ran 30’ of Romex rated for 50A, and wired up an EV charger in about 2-3 hours. It’s not rocket science. Now, obviously some panels don’t have the space, or the service to the house isn’t enough amps but if that’s a case why aren’t you upgrading a 50 year-old electrical panel anyway? It sounds like OP had a bunch of deferred electrical maintenance to begin with but wants to blame it on EVs.

breput 4y ago
You're not wrong, and I have wired my own 60A circuit, but it is not trivial either and it is right at the edge of the above-average DIY capability to do it safely.
oliwarner 4y ago
> It’s not rocket science And an earth rod, right? Anyone can stick a breaker in, run some cable, but it takes the rocket scientists to consider neutral fault conditions, causing potential between your home, charger, car and literal earth. It might not apply to you. Your charger might have built in protection (many don't) or your supply might be grounded to the literal earth… but this is why we have building regs and people to follow them. Even if you do the work, it's worth a chat with a qualified electrician, and to have them inspect your work. It could save your life.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  If they ran the standard 4 wire cable one of the wires will be a grounding wire that goes back to the panel. The panel should already have an earth ground and grounding rod(s). Adding a second grounding rod anywhere else would violate code in most states and potentially create a grounding loop and fire hazard. To correctly add more grounding rods in multiple locations would require a common ground bus where all grounding rods are inter-connected to an oversized grounding bus cable or bus bar that is independent of the circuit panel wiring. This is rare to find in a home however. This is more common in industrial buildings that have high power and high voltage equipment. In this setup every grounding rod has to be independently tested with a megger prior to being connected to the bus.

dmitrygr 4y ago

We (the HOA) tried to do this in a townhouse complex (where I own one unit) in Mountain View. The story went similarly, except the last step. Instead of telling us that we’ll need to relocate meters, the utility told us that they consider our neighborhood “complete” and they will not be running a thicker line to our buildings to allow for the now-code-required 125A panels. So thanks to their laziness, we can never ever do any electrical work in any unit, since getting permits requires upgrades to current code, and the electrical company won’t do their part no matter what, and without their part, compliance with current code is impossible.

gorkish 4y ago

Siemens has a new product that basically bypasses this entire problem by installing as a mezzanine connector into the power meter. Called the ConnectDER https://connectder.com/ https://connectder.com/ Regardless of what people will continue to claim, a 110V 15A outlet is really not enough. It's possible if you live your life on a strict schedule, drive very little, are very diligent about keeping your car plugged in, and don't mind having to go to a public charger routinely to sit for half an hour because you couldn't be bothered to hire an electrician one time to make the situation better for you in any possible way.

mbushey 4y ago
Really? I have a Nissan Leaf and a Tesla Model Y. I alternate using the same outlet to keep both of them fully charged. The Leaf only charges at home, and I only use Superchargers for the Y when I'm on road trips. I already have 220V in the garage, it's just not worth spending a few hundred on a 220v charger as 110v meets my needs completely. The only reason that I might go 220v would be if I install solar panels and want to dump more power into the cars during daylight hours.
turtlebits 4y ago
It all depends on your use case. EV's aren't for everyone. I charge at work, and L1 charging was fine for me when I was WFH during covid. I don't bother using outside chargers because L2 is too slow for short trips and fast charging is expensive.
aeternum 4y ago
110V 15A is plenty for many users. Like anything else, driving range needed is a bell-curve. You can make the situation much better for many with just access to 110V.
Karrot_Kream 4y ago
Now obviously driving mileage is normally distributed. But that said, the average American drives ~ 12,785 mi / year [1]. This means, on average, 35.03 mi / day. If a 110V/15A outlet can offer 1.65 kW, and we assume a conservative 3 mi / kW, then you only need to charge for 7.08 hrs to offset your daily driving. Assuming 8 hours a day for charging, as long as you drive less than 40 mi / day you should charge your whole day of driving up, and even if you can't you're only going to use a bit more of the battery. This doesn't seem to be particularly strict or diligent and it's based around average driving mileage. Our house came with an L2 charger box, but we drive much less than average in the US and it feels wasted on us. I run the charger once every 2-3 weeks or so and I'm fine. [1]: https://smartfinancial.com/average-miles-driven-per-year https://smartfinancial.com/average-miles-driven-per-year

foogazi 4y ago

> As EVs become more common, more landlords will be driven to invest in vehicle charging. Can EVs become more common without tenants being able to charge them ?

WorldMaker 4y ago
Yes. Obviously, it depends on the tenant's daily commutes especially, but at today's ranges a giant median chunk of US daily commuters could fast charge only once a week and meet their commute needs easily, with no other charges in between. Home chargers are incredibly useful and a game changer, but also destination chargers (chargers at work or grocery stores or malls or other places where cars are parked for multiple hours) are also similarly game changers. Just having one or the other reduces (and in some cases eliminates) the need for any "fast" charges. But EVs themselves don't "require" any specific charging configuration and compared to gas have more options than ever before with home and destination options.
acuozzo 4y ago
Yes, if EVs are produced with standardized modular battery arrays. Stop by the "gas" station, open up the hood, grab your drained battery cell cards, bring them in, and pay for fully-charged cell cards to swap in. The "gas" station can then charge the cards you brought and give them to another customer. It's worth noting that, under this scheme, battery life can be monitored and manufacturers can recycle/replace EOL cards when the "gas" station sends them in. No more waiting for the car to be charged. No more changes to homes. Just use the existing infrastructure! It's a win-win.
- ev1 4y ago
  Two wheelers already do this in many places. Gogoro is one option where you just pull up to a station, put your old battery in, and it'll tell you which fully charged one to pull out. If the station detects bad health or battery life it'll recycle/replace it the next time someone visits.
smileysteve 4y ago
Yes. Gas stations near me are installing fast chargers. ice driving Tenants currently have to go to gas stations.

puffoflogic 4y ago

Remember, if you aren't wealthy enough to be able to make these kinds of changes or buy a new home which doesn't need them, that means you're in the pocket of big oil. Or something, idk.

chiph 4y ago

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That would be much cheaper. I plan to add a charger to my rental property, either when my current tenant buys an EV or when they move out (to avoid disrupting them). The home is fairly new and was built with 200 amp service so I don't anticipate any permit problems. The idea is to differentiate my property in the marketplace and justify a higher rent. What I don't want is a tenant running a homemade 240v cable to the outlet for the electric clothes dryer and manually plugging/unplugging back & forth. That's unsafe. [1] The fire department will pull the meter when they arrive and start fighting a fire, so they aren't spraying water on live circuits.

mindslight 4y ago
From the article: > We recently decided to update our duplex’s electric system. I'm left wondering what exactly they meant by "update our duplex's electric system" if they did not mean put in a new service, new main panel, and bring the branch circuits up to current code? Like what were they actually envisioning doing, that did not include redoing the branch circuits? If this story were written with the electric vehicle precipitating the chain of events, I can see how that would be frustrating. But it seems they set out to do the updates, and are now complaining about doing the updates? The utility's position seems wholly unreasonable though. If this weren't a rental property, the right answer would be to DIY the install and make the utility deal with the additional load on the distribution infrastructure.
quickthrowman 4y ago
> I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That would be much cheaper. You’re correct, you don’t need to move the panels, but you do need to provide a emergency service disconnect on the exterior of the house. You could leave all the existing branch wiring in place, assuming it is up to code, and refeed the existing panels from the new service entrance location. The relevant code section in the NEC is 230.85, added in 2020. A large portion of the cost is new panels with AFCI and GFCI breakers, they’re $50-100 each for a 15A 1p breaker, probably $1500-2500 for each panel.

tuatoru 4y ago

Back when ICE cars first came along, owners bought cans of gasoline from their local general store and stored them in their stables (now garages). They recharged their cars at home. This seems like the era we are now in with respect to electric vehicles. There are some EV fleets for which charging downtime is not palatable (taxis in busy cities, for example). Swappable batteries have been developed and are being used by some of those fleets. The next step is standardization of swappable batteries, and divestment of battery swapping and maintenance into a separate company from fleet operation. The third step is the separate company offering services to the public. As vehicles built for these fleets are sold used, they will spread to households. Then we are back to "gas" stations/service stations. The logic seems sound. Rather than having to build charging complexity into every vehicle, and supply tens of millions or hundreds of millions of chargers, charging can be done at merely hundreds of thousands of charging stations, with the customer having a three minute trip through something like a car wash booth.