5 ms·

A sizable, possibly plurality cohort of fully adult tech people is young enough to not know about United States v. Microsoft Corp. This would explain a lot of c

by mkr-hn 4y ago

A sizable, possibly plurality cohort of fully adult tech people is young enough to not know about United States v. Microsoft Corp. This would explain a lot of comments I see on this topic. If you don't know Microsoft's history, a lot of what more informed people are worried about seems overblown. Copilot was Microsoft's first test of people's trust after the GitHub acquisition. It's going very, very, very poorly. There were ways to do this with consent and collaboration with the people and projects it takes code from, but they're acting like classic Microsoft here. Too many people are focused on what's legal. It's fine to think of, but law is the last stop before the breakdown of society. Microsoft skipped society and went straight to sparking an inevitable test of and possible reshaping of copyright law.

enlyth 4y ago
Or some of us do, and just have our own opinions. I literally don't care if someone steals my code, and I think the current state of digital copyright is nonsense that does not benefit society in any way.
- gizzlon 4y ago
  That is certainly your right, but very interesting in this discussion. Copyright laws should change if needed, but this is not the process.
- mkr-hn 4y ago
  You're free to put your code under something like CC0 if you feel this way. Everyone else who puts their code under a license that requires at least attribution and expects Microsoft to follow it can continue taking Microsoft to task for ignoring that responsibility at scale.
nonbirithm 4y ago
> Too many people are focused on what's legal. It's fine to think of, but law is the last stop before the breakdown of society. Microsoft skipped society and went straight to sparking an inevitable test of and possible reshaping of copyright law. Maybe it's illuminating of a trait of human nature. On the stable diffusion webui repo many people have stated that they would continue to use the code even if it were stolen or unlicensed. These people aren't a part of a corporation; they are average netizens handed a technology essentially indistinguishable from magic with nothing in place to prevent its use. If the tech is simply so impeccable as to be irresistible then a higher order framework needs to be in place to teach people not to bite because they will be bitten back.
- Siira 4y ago
  When someone presents some information publicly, copying it is a natural right. Copyright can only be legitimized as the state sponsoring short-term monopolies in select areas to subsidize industries that benefit the public (from receiving the said subsidies). Obviously, a technology that let’s the public creative the desired output with little cost is the sort of thing that can eliminate the need for such subsidization in the first place.
seadan83 4y ago
Microsoft has owned Github for how many years... and this is the _first_ test?
- xigoi 4y ago
  Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Takes a while to get to the Extinguish phase.
  - mkr-hn 4y ago
    Yep. Four years might be a long time in Silicon Valley, but not in Redmond. Satya Nadella has worked at Microsoft 30 years. This is a company that can think past the next quarter.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
trap_goes_hot 4y ago
>If you don't know Microsoft's history, a lot of what more informed people are worried about seems overblown. Or maybe they do know about it, and don't agree with you. Do you allow for such an option? https://github.com/features/copilot https://github.com/features/copilot "What can I do to reduce GitHub Copilot’s suggestion of code that matches public code? We built a filter to help detect and suppress the rare instances where a GitHub Copilot suggestion contains code that matches public code on GitHub. You have the choice to turn that filter on or off during setup. With the filter on, GitHub Copilot checks code suggestions with its surrounding code for matches or near matches (ignoring whitespace) against public code on GitHub of about 150 characters. If there is a match, the suggestion will not be shown to you. We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment."
- thomasahle 4y ago
  > You have the choice to turn that filter on or off during setup. Notice that Copilot often gives code that verbatim matches opens source software, even when that filter is on. For example: https://twitter.com/DocSparse/status/1581461734665367554?s=20&t=pZlpf1LJRTgGYfLSITf3Bg https://twitter.com/DocSparse/status/1581461734665367554?s=2... Their approach of "matches or near matches (ignoring whitespace)" is clearly inadequate, and it's honestly insulting that they think this is enough. Even if Copilot just changed the case of a single letter, their filter wouldn't catch it.
  - trap_goes_hot 4y ago
    >Notice that Copilot often gives code that verbatim matches opens source software, even when that filter is on. I saw a few examples, but I don't see how that extrapolates to often. It's quite possible I've missed something in the article since I kinda skimmed it. :) >and it's honestly insulting that they think this is enough. They don't. - "We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment."
    - foldr 4y ago
      >They don't. - "We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment." That is corporate speak for "we plan to do nothing about this".
moffkalast 4y ago
Microsoft forgot that we live in a society. Bottom text provided by copilot.

by mkr-hn 4y ago

enlyth 4y ago

Or some of us do, and just have our own opinions. I literally don't care if someone steals my code, and I think the current state of digital copyright is nonsense that does not benefit society in any way.

gizzlon 4y ago
That is certainly your right, but very interesting in this discussion. Copyright laws should change if needed, but this is not the process.
mkr-hn 4y ago
You're free to put your code under something like CC0 if you feel this way. Everyone else who puts their code under a license that requires at least attribution and expects Microsoft to follow it can continue taking Microsoft to task for ignoring that responsibility at scale.

nonbirithm 4y ago

> Too many people are focused on what's legal. It's fine to think of, but law is the last stop before the breakdown of society. Microsoft skipped society and went straight to sparking an inevitable test of and possible reshaping of copyright law. Maybe it's illuminating of a trait of human nature. On the stable diffusion webui repo many people have stated that they would continue to use the code even if it were stolen or unlicensed. These people aren't a part of a corporation; they are average netizens handed a technology essentially indistinguishable from magic with nothing in place to prevent its use. If the tech is simply so impeccable as to be irresistible then a higher order framework needs to be in place to teach people not to bite because they will be bitten back.

Siira 4y ago
When someone presents some information publicly, copying it is a natural right. Copyright can only be legitimized as the state sponsoring short-term monopolies in select areas to subsidize industries that benefit the public (from receiving the said subsidies). Obviously, a technology that let’s the public creative the desired output with little cost is the sort of thing that can eliminate the need for such subsidization in the first place.

seadan83 4y ago

Microsoft has owned Github for how many years... and this is the _first_ test?

xigoi 4y ago
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Takes a while to get to the Extinguish phase.
- mkr-hn 4y ago
  Yep. Four years might be a long time in Silicon Valley, but not in Redmond. Satya Nadella has worked at Microsoft 30 years. This is a company that can think past the next quarter.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

trap_goes_hot 4y ago

>If you don't know Microsoft's history, a lot of what more informed people are worried about seems overblown. Or maybe they do know about it, and don't agree with you. Do you allow for such an option? https://github.com/features/copilot https://github.com/features/copilot "What can I do to reduce GitHub Copilot’s suggestion of code that matches public code? We built a filter to help detect and suppress the rare instances where a GitHub Copilot suggestion contains code that matches public code on GitHub. You have the choice to turn that filter on or off during setup. With the filter on, GitHub Copilot checks code suggestions with its surrounding code for matches or near matches (ignoring whitespace) against public code on GitHub of about 150 characters. If there is a match, the suggestion will not be shown to you. We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment."

thomasahle 4y ago
> You have the choice to turn that filter on or off during setup. Notice that Copilot often gives code that verbatim matches opens source software, even when that filter is on. For example: https://twitter.com/DocSparse/status/1581461734665367554?s=20&t=pZlpf1LJRTgGYfLSITf3Bg https://twitter.com/DocSparse/status/1581461734665367554?s=2... Their approach of "matches or near matches (ignoring whitespace)" is clearly inadequate, and it's honestly insulting that they think this is enough. Even if Copilot just changed the case of a single letter, their filter wouldn't catch it.
- trap_goes_hot 4y ago
  >Notice that Copilot often gives code that verbatim matches opens source software, even when that filter is on. I saw a few examples, but I don't see how that extrapolates to often. It's quite possible I've missed something in the article since I kinda skimmed it. :) >and it's honestly insulting that they think this is enough. They don't. - "We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment."
  - foldr 4y ago
    >They don't. - "We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment." That is corporate speak for "we plan to do nothing about this".

moffkalast 4y ago

Microsoft forgot that we live in a society. Bottom text provided by copilot.