7 ms·
Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while no
by V__ 4y ago
Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so.
Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas (see edit) is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general.
The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better.
This winter also isn't predicted to be particularly cold, so the full gas storages in combination with the soon opening LNG-terminals will suffice.
EDIT: I made a mistake, 10% of electricity is gas.
- xg15 4y ago> Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. A number of cities also use district heating, where the heat is taken directly from the cooling circuits of nearby power stations. No idea what percentage of total heating this is and if nuclear plants are involved here, but this would be another way how those plants could (theoretically) contribute to heating.
- V__ 4y agoGood point, and this is a thing in Switzerland, but not in Germany. Direct heating from nuclear plants, that is.
- YetAnotherNick 4y agoI wouldn't like nuclear water heating my house.
- oynqr 4y agoI bet you don't travel by plane, either.
- xg15 4y agoI mean... I usually belong to the anti-nuclear crowd, but even I don't think that would be an issue. From what I know, one of the iron rules of nuclear plant design is that the contaminated stuff never leaves the reactor building. Even the steam circuit that powers the generator is separated from the (contaminated) primary circuit and receives energy through a heat exchanger [1]. The lines for district heating would probably be separated from the primary circuit by several of those. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_exchanger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_exchanger
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoIt's a separate circuit. That water never touches the reactor core.
- llampx 4y agoThis is the level of education the average German has.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity German household electricity is double the price of America’s and considerably higher than France or Italy [1]. Were this not the case, more houses could be heated with electricity instead of gas and the coming recession made less painful. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price...
- V__ 4y agoAbsolutely. But the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now. The political procrastination of the last decades is biting Germany in the ass right now.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now It could make a dent if seriously pursued, e.g. by focussing transitioning vulnerable households. The economic benefits of reduced electricity prices would also immediately accrue.
- V__ 4y agoThere are currently multiple plans in the work and some already started. The goal right now is to install at least 500k heat-pumps per year. But, there aren't enough skilled heating contractors, so they are working on solving this as well.
- merb 4y agoComparing france with germany is stupid. Btw these prices are old for Europe, you can basically x2 them (except france) the reason hey it is stupid, is because 0,19 is the number that the people Pay, But Not the actual number (they have fixed pricing kinda) In fact france would be more expansive now, than germany.
- arcticbull 4y ago> The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better. Oh no, here's hoping they learned a lesson from that money. Without affordable gas, they'll be buying electric heaters. I believe that's already under way. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costly-fan-heaters-gas-shortage-fears-bite-2022-09-11/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costl...
- V__ 4y agoRight now, gas prices are falling (since the gas storages are full) and federal assistance is currently in the works. So, while possible, I don't know how likely of a problem this will be.
- timmg 4y agoAbove you pointed out the high cost of replacing fuel rods. How does that compare to the “federal assistance” required to pay bloated gas bills?
- V__ 4y agoAlso maintenance, but still in comparison, it probably isn't a lot. The last figure I have is about 17 billion for all those federal programs and investments (but those include cheaper public transport tickets as well as other things). However, I don't thing those costs are comparable. Those nuclear plants won't have a dramatic impact on the price of gas or energy, so the cost of the federal programs will be there nonetheless.
- timmg 4y ago> Those nuclear plants won't have a dramatic impact on the price of gas or energy, so the cost of the federal programs will be there nonetheless. Even if it doesn’t change the price of gas, wouldn’t it mean buying/burning less gas than you would otherwise? That, in itself, would be a huge savings. Maybe I’m just missing some data, but this seems like a no-brainer to me on several levels. It’s hard for me to understand anyone being against this.
- belorn 4y agoWind conditions are more important question this winter than temperature. Good conditions will mean low power prices, meaning that industries, schools, apartment buildings and homes can afford to pay their bills without government bailing people out. A worse case scenario would had been windless cold winter with gas supplies empty, and a government that have to bailout both the industry, the government institutions, and private people. 3 nuclear power plants provides a bit of backup for that situation.
- V__ 4y agoThat's true, but if it becomes that bad its really just drop in the bucket.
- naasking 4y ago> However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. Energy prices in Germany suggest otherwise. Also, Germany is facing a gas pinch given the geopolitics right now, so freeing up 10% is nothing to sneeze at.
- V__ 4y agoI made a mistake, 10% of electricity is gas. Due to the fact that nuclear is base load and gas plants are mostly used for grid compensation, it would result (according to estimates) in a 1-2% increase in gas usage.
- plextoria 4y agoIt’s true that Germany might have enough electricity, but we are sharing with EU. And it so happens that in the biggest neighbor, France, half of the nuclear reactors are stopped for maintenance and the French might need to import considerable amounts of electricity this winter.
- V__ 4y agoThey are planning to get them up and running till winter, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether this is achievable and if not how much of a problem that would be and if those three nuclear plants would make a difference.
- raxxorraxor 4y agoYou could add cooling towers and they would not have had the problem. But it would still increase the costs further to a degree that it may not be viable anymore. The high energy prices in Germany are to a large degree political. For instance to make the switch to renewables. It doesn't mean the base cost of energy is high. It is in fact lower for the most part. The three plants don't do too much, only when you really need every Watt of energy you can muster. Not worthwhile economically to let them run really, as the decommission needs to be reorganized. The owners of the plant weren't too happy.
- sllabres 4y agoYes, but it's not Germany alone. A lot of the electricity produced in Germany is exported to other countries. And if this is not longer possible this would be a problem for them too. More aggravating is the circumstance that France, another European country that usually exports electricity cannot too as many (half) of their fleet of nuclear reactors are in maintenance.
- V__ 4y agoThey are planning to get them up and running till winter, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether this is achievable and if not how much of a problem that would be and if those three nuclear plants would make a difference.
- sllabres 4y agoDoesn't look too good from my laymans point of view [1]: "Title: Maintenance on eight French nuclear reactors delayed by strike ... French nuclear availability is currently at 51% of total capacity with 26 reactors offline for maintenance." [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/edf-says-strike-hits-third-french-nuclear-plants-delaying-maintenance-work-2022-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/edf-says-strike-hits...
- evilos 4y agoBased on the fact that Berlin is planning for 2-3 hour* organized blackouts, I don't think they have enough electricity. EDIT: Not 2 to 3 blackouts, 2 to 3 hour blackouts. When grid is overstressed.
- V__ 4y agoI would hope they are planning for the worst-case. I want the government to have contingency plans. Doesn't mean it will happen.
- evilos 4y agoThat's the amazing thing. They are not. Most likely it will be far worse than they are imagining. I hope I am wrong.
- V__ 4y agoI don't know about any evidence to support this claim. By law, industry will be shut down before any private home is affected. About 40% of gas and electricity is respectively used in industries. That means there is a lot of reserve before any home gets a blackout. Short term rolling blackout maybe, anything longer highly unlikely. EDIT: Just saw the edit. Yeah, that doesn't seem like a big deal to me. In 2019 after a damaged cable, there was a 31-hour blackout in some parts of Berlin. In comparison a 2 to 3 hour one happens all the time during storms etc.