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>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people w

by _dain_ 4y ago

>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?

kleiba 4y ago
There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil. The reason for that is that until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. And let's not forget that the current "shortage" is a result of political decisions, and not because gas and oil have ceased to exist. Germany is in the process of moving to greener energies, not just on the state level but also in private homes. But that's mostly true for new constructions of which there are comparatively few. Coincidentally, the German government has recently announced to de-incentivize new construction and rather suggest updating existing houses. It will take many years, though, to get all those houses to move off of gas and oil, especially because Germany has a relatively high percentage of rentals over home owners. There's no real reason for landlords to update the heating system of their investment properties because the cost for heating is paid by the tenants anyway.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil If the 2014 invasion of Ukraine wasn't a dead giveaway, I don't know what else could habe make it more foreseeable. It was very foreseeable. Both the US and other Eastern European nations warned about this but Germany chose to be ignorant till the very end.
- MrPatan 4y ago
  > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine The russian invasion of Ukraine happened because Germany is dependant on Russian gas.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Care to elaborate? Or wouldn't have Russia invaded if Germany (and a large part of Europe, by the way) did rely on Russian gas? That kind of doesn't make any sense, since it was Russia who cut gas supply, and not vice versa. So Russia doesn't seem to have any interest in selling gas to Europe.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > ...it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. If you don't supply it yourself then it isn't unforeseeable. In fact, I'd say it's inevitable. It's only unforeseeable as to when it will occur. Energy independence is a great thing for this reason.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  >There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil Yes and why is that? Electric heating is not some space-age technology. It has been around for a century. There are countries where it's ubiquitous. Saying "Germany doesn't have the infra for electric heating" is not an explanation. It's just restating the problem in different words. It isn't some accident, it happened by deliberate policy. I keep harping on this point, but the German government has spent cumulatively half a trillion USD on moving toward green energy, ostensibly in the name of combatting global warming. And yet with all that money and effort, they couldn't transition towards ubiquitous electric heating? Instead, they wrecked their one dependable green energy source (uranium) and became further dependent on Russian gas, which fuels global warming even more (despite propaganda to the contrary). It's all because wind and solar are intermittent, there's nowhere near enough storage capacity on the grid and there won't be for decades, and their politicians have their heads in the sand about the whole business.
  - Isolus 4y ago
    > Yes and why is that? Gas price was 4 ct/kWh two years ago, electricity at 35 ct/kWh. People always take what is currently the cheapest. > It's all because wind and solar are intermittent, there's nowhere near enough storage capacity on the grid and there won't be for decades, and their politicians have their heads in the sand about the whole business. They didn't put their heads in the sand. The former government sabotaged the whole renewable industry again and again (e. g. they didn't allow building new renewable power plants for years, storage facilities need to pay for the grid when they store energy and when they release it so they can't be competetitive to gas).
- nyokodo 4y ago
  > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil Except it was foreseeable and foreseen [1] just very politically and economically inconvenient. 1. https://www.gmfus.org/news/why-germans-ignored-putins-true-nature-so-long https://www.gmfus.org/news/why-germans-ignored-putins-true-n...
pjmlp 4y ago
One reason is that the lawmakers have allowed those same people to stop the construction of any source of green energy when it is too disturbing for the landscape, or too noisy for them to sleep, or whatever they come up with. So lesser countries in Europe already managed to have higher count of green energy sources, while lots of construction yards in Germany are blocked on ongoing court cases.
wander_homer 4y ago
> And whose fault is that? The previous government's. Scientists have been criticizing them for years now that they failed to provide the necessary infrastructure and statutory framework for the "Energiewende" to work.
legulere 4y ago
You can't switch 40 million heating systems overnight, though it's picking up steam (https://www.waermepumpe.de/presse/zahlen-daten/ https://www.waermepumpe.de/presse/zahlen-daten/).
- jansan 4y ago
  Simply install an air conditioner and you will have very efficient room heating (no hot water, though). They cost about 1500€ and are really easy to install. I know in Bulgaria many households have switched from oil heating to air conditioners.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    That's not that easy with German homes as they are heated with hot water pipes and walls are typically solid. You could maybe install a device that emits hot air in a single room, but to install a forced air system, you'd need to in essence remodel the entire home. In addition, you'd have worse outcomes because now the nice warm floors are gone.
    - nawitus 4y ago
      In that case you need to install air/water heat pump, which not only heats the house but also the potable water. They're more costly than regular heat pumps, but are _better_ choice than individual heat pump units around the house. It's a more difficult situation if the house lacks water circulation (heated floors/radiators).
      - ajmurmann 4y ago
        Why an air/water heat pump and not just a water heat pump? AFAIk heat pumps are becoming quite popular in Germany in recent years and are definitely a very viable option unlike "air conditioning".
  - TacticalCoder 4y ago
    I did just that to my house in France. Everybody here (south east of France) does that. Seen the savings and that it both cools in the summer and warms in the summer, it's a complete no-brainer. In addition to that I switched my open fireplace to an enclosed one: the efficiency when burning wood is greatly increased. And I stockpiled on wood. So should there be electricity shortage preventing me from using HVAC to warm the house, at least nobody is going to prevent me from putting wood in the fireplace.

by _dain_ 4y ago

kleiba 4y ago

There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil. The reason for that is that until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. And let's not forget that the current "shortage" is a result of political decisions, and not because gas and oil have ceased to exist. Germany is in the process of moving to greener energies, not just on the state level but also in private homes. But that's mostly true for new constructions of which there are comparatively few. Coincidentally, the German government has recently announced to de-incentivize new construction and rather suggest updating existing houses. It will take many years, though, to get all those houses to move off of gas and oil, especially because Germany has a relatively high percentage of rentals over home owners. There's no real reason for landlords to update the heating system of their investment properties because the cost for heating is paid by the tenants anyway.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
> until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil If the 2014 invasion of Ukraine wasn't a dead giveaway, I don't know what else could habe make it more foreseeable. It was very foreseeable. Both the US and other Eastern European nations warned about this but Germany chose to be ignorant till the very end.
MrPatan 4y ago
> until the Russian invasion of Ukraine The russian invasion of Ukraine happened because Germany is dependant on Russian gas.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Care to elaborate? Or wouldn't have Russia invaded if Germany (and a large part of Europe, by the way) did rely on Russian gas? That kind of doesn't make any sense, since it was Russia who cut gas supply, and not vice versa. So Russia doesn't seem to have any interest in selling gas to Europe.
nemo44x 4y ago
> ...it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. If you don't supply it yourself then it isn't unforeseeable. In fact, I'd say it's inevitable. It's only unforeseeable as to when it will occur. Energy independence is a great thing for this reason.
_dain_ 4y ago
>There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil Yes and why is that? Electric heating is not some space-age technology. It has been around for a century. There are countries where it's ubiquitous. Saying "Germany doesn't have the infra for electric heating" is not an explanation. It's just restating the problem in different words. It isn't some accident, it happened by deliberate policy. I keep harping on this point, but the German government has spent cumulatively half a trillion USD on moving toward green energy, ostensibly in the name of combatting global warming. And yet with all that money and effort, they couldn't transition towards ubiquitous electric heating? Instead, they wrecked their one dependable green energy source (uranium) and became further dependent on Russian gas, which fuels global warming even more (despite propaganda to the contrary). It's all because wind and solar are intermittent, there's nowhere near enough storage capacity on the grid and there won't be for decades, and their politicians have their heads in the sand about the whole business.
- Isolus 4y ago
  > Yes and why is that? Gas price was 4 ct/kWh two years ago, electricity at 35 ct/kWh. People always take what is currently the cheapest. > It's all because wind and solar are intermittent, there's nowhere near enough storage capacity on the grid and there won't be for decades, and their politicians have their heads in the sand about the whole business. They didn't put their heads in the sand. The former government sabotaged the whole renewable industry again and again (e. g. they didn't allow building new renewable power plants for years, storage facilities need to pay for the grid when they store energy and when they release it so they can't be competetitive to gas).
nyokodo 4y ago
> until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil Except it was foreseeable and foreseen [1] just very politically and economically inconvenient. 1. https://www.gmfus.org/news/why-germans-ignored-putins-true-nature-so-long https://www.gmfus.org/news/why-germans-ignored-putins-true-n...

pjmlp 4y ago

One reason is that the lawmakers have allowed those same people to stop the construction of any source of green energy when it is too disturbing for the landscape, or too noisy for them to sleep, or whatever they come up with. So lesser countries in Europe already managed to have higher count of green energy sources, while lots of construction yards in Germany are blocked on ongoing court cases.

wander_homer 4y ago

> And whose fault is that? The previous government's. Scientists have been criticizing them for years now that they failed to provide the necessary infrastructure and statutory framework for the "Energiewende" to work.

legulere 4y ago

You can't switch 40 million heating systems overnight, though it's picking up steam (https://www.waermepumpe.de/presse/zahlen-daten/ https://www.waermepumpe.de/presse/zahlen-daten/).

jansan 4y ago
Simply install an air conditioner and you will have very efficient room heating (no hot water, though). They cost about 1500€ and are really easy to install. I know in Bulgaria many households have switched from oil heating to air conditioners.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  That's not that easy with German homes as they are heated with hot water pipes and walls are typically solid. You could maybe install a device that emits hot air in a single room, but to install a forced air system, you'd need to in essence remodel the entire home. In addition, you'd have worse outcomes because now the nice warm floors are gone.
  - nawitus 4y ago
    In that case you need to install air/water heat pump, which not only heats the house but also the potable water. They're more costly than regular heat pumps, but are _better_ choice than individual heat pump units around the house. It's a more difficult situation if the house lacks water circulation (heated floors/radiators).
    - ajmurmann 4y ago
      Why an air/water heat pump and not just a water heat pump? AFAIk heat pumps are becoming quite popular in Germany in recent years and are definitely a very viable option unlike "air conditioning".
- TacticalCoder 4y ago
  I did just that to my house in France. Everybody here (south east of France) does that. Seen the savings and that it both cools in the summer and warms in the summer, it's a complete no-brainer. In addition to that I switched my open fireplace to an enclosed one: the efficiency when burning wood is greatly increased. And I stockpiled on wood. So should there be electricity shortage preventing me from using HVAC to warm the house, at least nobody is going to prevent me from putting wood in the fireplace.