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Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistica

by hef19898 4y ago

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals stability to the energy markets, as those have been crazy lately.

xg15 4y ago
> Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. This would be the case during normal times. We're not in normal times though. There has been widespread panic buying of portable electric heaters all throughout summer. Owners of single-family homes are also increasingly switching to heat pumps as the main source of heating (as is strongly encouraged by the government). If we actually run into a gas crunch this winter, blackouts could ironically be a knock-on effect if everyone turns on their electric heater at the same time.
legulere 4y ago
It's also good for France, which currently has a shortfall of electricity and is heating with electricity.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Doesn't France only have a shortfall because rivers were low during summer and Nuclear Reactors couldn't produce regular outputs? The rivers won't be low in the winter.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Around half of the reactors are shut down for maintenance. Some scheduled, others for faults discovered during inspection. They expect to be back online only at the beginning of 2023.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    They're down because of deferred maintenance, pushed back because of corona.
_dain_ 4y ago
>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?
- kleiba 4y ago
  There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil. The reason for that is that until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. And let's not forget that the current "shortage" is a result of political decisions, and not because gas and oil have ceased to exist. Germany is in the process of moving to greener energies, not just on the state level but also in private homes. But that's mostly true for new constructions of which there are comparatively few. Coincidentally, the German government has recently announced to de-incentivize new construction and rather suggest updating existing houses. It will take many years, though, to get all those houses to move off of gas and oil, especially because Germany has a relatively high percentage of rentals over home owners. There's no real reason for landlords to update the heating system of their investment properties because the cost for heating is paid by the tenants anyway.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil If the 2014 invasion of Ukraine wasn't a dead giveaway, I don't know what else could habe make it more foreseeable. It was very foreseeable. Both the US and other Eastern European nations warned about this but Germany chose to be ignorant till the very end.
  - MrPatan 4y ago
    > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine The russian invasion of Ukraine happened because Germany is dependant on Russian gas.
    - hef19898 4y ago
badpun 4y ago
> reasonably priced at markets I wouldn’t call 700% increase over just two years ago „reasonable”…
jansan 4y ago
If there is a gas shortage later in winter, which may well happen, people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm. I cannot believe that the green party was willing to severly increase the risk of major blackouts out of pure vanity.
- myth_drannon 4y ago
  Well, but electricity is also generated by gas (at least part of it)
  - jansan 4y ago
    But there may be not enough gas at the end of the winter. And in that case you should gather any other source of electricity available, even if it covers only 8 percent, as nuclear energy currently does.
- wander_homer 4y ago
  > people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm The grid isn't build for such a load.
  - felixfbecker 4y ago
    Germany also uses electric stoves for cooking more than gas. An electric stove uses 2000-5000W. The grid handles everyone turning on their stove around the same times fine. Maybe heaters will have to run on top of that, but likely most won't have their space heater running while also cooking.
    - wander_homer 4y ago
      What are you talking about? The reason why electric stoves don't bring the grid down is because it is designed with this load in mind. Adding electric heating to the grid is an additional load, because people won't stop cooking when it's cold, nor would they stop heating if they're hungry. That's why experts are warning people to not suddenly switch from gas to electric heating this winter.
bombcar 4y ago
Many gas furnaces cease working when electricity fails.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  They do, but they probably don't consume that much energy. I doubt Germany expects to have electricity blackouts, since they're actually going to sell some to France in exchange for gas. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/business/france-sends-gas-to-germany.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/business/france-sends-gas...

xg15 4y ago

> Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. This would be the case during normal times. We're not in normal times though. There has been widespread panic buying of portable electric heaters all throughout summer. Owners of single-family homes are also increasingly switching to heat pumps as the main source of heating (as is strongly encouraged by the government). If we actually run into a gas crunch this winter, blackouts could ironically be a knock-on effect if everyone turns on their electric heater at the same time.

legulere 4y ago

It's also good for France, which currently has a shortfall of electricity and is heating with electricity.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Doesn't France only have a shortfall because rivers were low during summer and Nuclear Reactors couldn't produce regular outputs? The rivers won't be low in the winter.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Around half of the reactors are shut down for maintenance. Some scheduled, others for faults discovered during inspection. They expect to be back online only at the beginning of 2023.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  They're down because of deferred maintenance, pushed back because of corona.

_dain_ 4y ago

>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?

kleiba 4y ago
There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil. The reason for that is that until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. And let's not forget that the current "shortage" is a result of political decisions, and not because gas and oil have ceased to exist. Germany is in the process of moving to greener energies, not just on the state level but also in private homes. But that's mostly true for new constructions of which there are comparatively few. Coincidentally, the German government has recently announced to de-incentivize new construction and rather suggest updating existing houses. It will take many years, though, to get all those houses to move off of gas and oil, especially because Germany has a relatively high percentage of rentals over home owners. There's no real reason for landlords to update the heating system of their investment properties because the cost for heating is paid by the tenants anyway.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil If the 2014 invasion of Ukraine wasn't a dead giveaway, I don't know what else could habe make it more foreseeable. It was very foreseeable. Both the US and other Eastern European nations warned about this but Germany chose to be ignorant till the very end.
- MrPatan 4y ago
  > until the Russian invasion of Ukraine The russian invasion of Ukraine happened because Germany is dependant on Russian gas.
  - hef19898 4y ago

badpun 4y ago

> reasonably priced at markets I wouldn’t call 700% increase over just two years ago „reasonable”…

jansan 4y ago

If there is a gas shortage later in winter, which may well happen, people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm. I cannot believe that the green party was willing to severly increase the risk of major blackouts out of pure vanity.

myth_drannon 4y ago
Well, but electricity is also generated by gas (at least part of it)
- jansan 4y ago
  But there may be not enough gas at the end of the winter. And in that case you should gather any other source of electricity available, even if it covers only 8 percent, as nuclear energy currently does.
wander_homer 4y ago
> people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm The grid isn't build for such a load.
- felixfbecker 4y ago
  Germany also uses electric stoves for cooking more than gas. An electric stove uses 2000-5000W. The grid handles everyone turning on their stove around the same times fine. Maybe heaters will have to run on top of that, but likely most won't have their space heater running while also cooking.
  - wander_homer 4y ago
    What are you talking about? The reason why electric stoves don't bring the grid down is because it is designed with this load in mind. Adding electric heating to the grid is an additional load, because people won't stop cooking when it's cold, nor would they stop heating if they're hungry. That's why experts are warning people to not suddenly switch from gas to electric heating this winter.

bombcar 4y ago

Many gas furnaces cease working when electricity fails.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
They do, but they probably don't consume that much energy. I doubt Germany expects to have electricity blackouts, since they're actually going to sell some to France in exchange for gas. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/business/france-sends-gas-to-germany.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/business/france-sends-gas...