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Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threa

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

V__ 4y ago
Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas (see edit) is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better. This winter also isn't predicted to be particularly cold, so the full gas storages in combination with the soon opening LNG-terminals will suffice. EDIT: I made a mistake, 10% of electricity is gas.
- xg15 4y ago
  > Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. A number of cities also use district heating, where the heat is taken directly from the cooling circuits of nearby power stations. No idea what percentage of total heating this is and if nuclear plants are involved here, but this would be another way how those plants could (theoretically) contribute to heating.
  - V__ 4y ago
    Good point, and this is a thing in Switzerland, but not in Germany. Direct heating from nuclear plants, that is.
  - YetAnotherNick 4y ago
    I wouldn't like nuclear water heating my house.
    - oynqr 4y ago
      I bet you don't travel by plane, either.
    - xg15 4y ago
      I mean... I usually belong to the anti-nuclear crowd, but even I don't think that would be an issue. From what I know, one of the iron rules of nuclear plant design is that the contaminated stuff never leaves the reactor building. Even the steam circuit that powers the generator is separated from the (contaminated) primary circuit and receives energy through a heat exchanger [1]. The lines for district heating would probably be separated from the primary circuit by several of those. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_exchanger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_exchanger
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      It's a separate circuit. That water never touches the reactor core.
    - llampx 4y ago
      This is the level of education the average German has.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity German household electricity is double the price of America’s and considerably higher than France or Italy [1]. Were this not the case, more houses could be heated with electricity instead of gas and the coming recession made less painful. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price...
  - V__ 4y ago
    Absolutely. But the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now. The political procrastination of the last decades is biting Germany in the ass right now.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now It could make a dent if seriously pursued, e.g. by focussing transitioning vulnerable households. The economic benefits of reduced electricity prices would also immediately accrue.
      - V__ 4y ago
        There are currently multiple plans in the work and some already started. The goal right now is to install at least 500k heat-pumps per year. But, there aren't enough skilled heating contractors, so they are working on solving this as well.
  - merb 4y ago
    Comparing france with germany is stupid. Btw these prices are old for Europe, you can basically x2 them (except france) the reason hey it is stupid, is because 0,19 is the number that the people Pay, But Not the actual number (they have fixed pricing kinda) In fact france would be more expansive now, than germany.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  > The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better. Oh no, here's hoping they learned a lesson from that money. Without affordable gas, they'll be buying electric heaters. I believe that's already under way. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costly-fan-heaters-gas-shortage-fears-bite-2022-09-11/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costl...
  - V__ 4y ago
    Right now, gas prices are falling (since the gas storages are full) and federal assistance is currently in the works. So, while possible, I don't know how likely of a problem this will be.
    - timmg 4y ago
      Above you pointed out the high cost of replacing fuel rods. How does that compare to the “federal assistance” required to pay bloated gas bills?
      - V__ 4y ago
        Also maintenance, but still in comparison, it probably isn't a lot. The last figure I have is about 17 billion for all those federal programs and investments (but those include cheaper public transport tickets as well as other things). However, I don't thing those costs are comparable. Those nuclear plants won't have a dramatic impact on the price of gas or energy, so the cost of the federal programs will be there nonetheless.
        timmg 4y ago
        > Those nuclear plants won't have a dramatic impact on the price of gas or energy, so the cost of the federal programs will be there nonetheless. Even if it doesn’t change the price of gas, wouldn’t it mean buying/burning less gas than you would otherwise? That, in itself, would be a huge savings. Maybe I’m just missing some data, but this seems like a no-brainer to me on several levels. It’s hard for me to understand anyone being against this.
- belorn 4y ago
  Wind conditions are more important question this winter than temperature. Good conditions will mean low power prices, meaning that industries, schools, apartment buildings and homes can afford to pay their bills without government bailing people out. A worse case scenario would had been windless cold winter with gas supplies empty, and a government that have to bailout both the industry, the government institutions, and private people. 3 nuclear power plants provides a bit of backup for that situation.
  - V__ 4y ago
    That's true, but if it becomes that bad its really just drop in the bucket.
- naasking 4y ago
  > However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. Energy prices in Germany suggest otherwise. Also, Germany is facing a gas pinch given the geopolitics right now, so freeing up 10% is nothing to sneeze at.
  - V__ 4y ago
    I made a mistake, 10% of electricity is gas. Due to the fact that nuclear is base load and gas plants are mostly used for grid compensation, it would result (according to estimates) in a 1-2% increase in gas usage.
    - naasking 4y ago
      Sorry, are you saying that keeping the nuclear reactors online will increase gas use by 1-2%?
      - V__ 4y ago
        Oh, that wasn't clear, sorry. Taking them offline would result in an estimated increase of gas by 1-2%.
- plextoria 4y ago
  It’s true that Germany might have enough electricity, but we are sharing with EU. And it so happens that in the biggest neighbor, France, half of the nuclear reactors are stopped for maintenance and the French might need to import considerable amounts of electricity this winter.
  - V__ 4y ago
    They are planning to get them up and running till winter, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether this is achievable and if not how much of a problem that would be and if those three nuclear plants would make a difference.
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      You could add cooling towers and they would not have had the problem. But it would still increase the costs further to a degree that it may not be viable anymore. The high energy prices in Germany are to a large degree political. For instance to make the switch to renewables. It doesn't mean the base cost of energy is high. It is in fact lower for the most part. The three plants don't do too much, only when you really need every Watt of energy you can muster. Not worthwhile economically to let them run really, as the decommission needs to be reorganized. The owners of the plant weren't too happy.
- sllabres 4y ago
  Yes, but it's not Germany alone. A lot of the electricity produced in Germany is exported to other countries. And if this is not longer possible this would be a problem for them too. More aggravating is the circumstance that France, another European country that usually exports electricity cannot too as many (half) of their fleet of nuclear reactors are in maintenance.
  - V__ 4y ago
    They are planning to get them up and running till winter, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether this is achievable and if not how much of a problem that would be and if those three nuclear plants would make a difference.
    - sllabres 4y ago
      Doesn't look too good from my laymans point of view [1]: "Title: Maintenance on eight French nuclear reactors delayed by strike ... French nuclear availability is currently at 51% of total capacity with 26 reactors offline for maintenance." [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/edf-says-strike-hits-third-french-nuclear-plants-delaying-maintenance-work-2022-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/edf-says-strike-hits...
- evilos 4y ago
  Based on the fact that Berlin is planning for 2-3 hour* organized blackouts, I don't think they have enough electricity. EDIT: Not 2 to 3 blackouts, 2 to 3 hour blackouts. When grid is overstressed.
  - V__ 4y ago
    I would hope they are planning for the worst-case. I want the government to have contingency plans. Doesn't mean it will happen.
    - evilos 4y ago
      That's the amazing thing. They are not. Most likely it will be far worse than they are imagining. I hope I am wrong.
      - V__ 4y ago
        I don't know about any evidence to support this claim. By law, industry will be shut down before any private home is affected. About 40% of gas and electricity is respectively used in industries. That means there is a lot of reserve before any home gets a blackout. Short term rolling blackout maybe, anything longer highly unlikely. EDIT: Just saw the edit. Yeah, that doesn't seem like a big deal to me. In 2019 after a damaged cable, there was a 31-hour blackout in some parts of Berlin. In comparison a 2 to 3 hour one happens all the time during storms etc.
papito 4y ago
It's more sinister than that. Russia was financially extremely incentivized to let this happen and indeed, it seems the so-called "environmental groups" in Germany and elsewhere are really fronts for the Russian government: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127... Designed to cynically "care" about the environment, but in reality meant to destroy Europe's energy independence.
- xg15 4y ago
  > It has recently come to light Are there any more specific references what exactly has come to light here? As it stands, this question just reads as a pretty cheap attempt to frame any and all environmental concerns or pro-renewable/anti-fossil fuel advocacy as russian propaganda. (which doesn't even make sense as gas itself is not renewable - greens usually see gas as the lesser evil compared to coal and nuclear but by no means as an end goal) The german environmental and anti-nuclear movement predates the reunification, let alone russian gas deals or putin. While there might be some groups who are russian fronts or receive russian funding, the majority of the movement has quite strong motivations of its own. This doesn't even take the "new" parts of the climate movement into account, such as Fridays for Future.
  - papito 4y ago
    Sure. How about Fox News? https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-funding-environmental-groups-europe-united-state https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-funding-environmental-g...
throw827474737 4y ago
> Germany was facing a cold winter Yaaawn.. this doomsday propaganda is really getting old, and lets meet in 6 month again and lets see how much impact and necessity those 3 plants had at all on heating here.. Wait, your are likely not from Germany nor even Europe and state "Germany was facing a cold winter" like fact based on what please?
- jsiepkes 4y ago
  Germany has 0 LNG capability and is for Gas largely dependent on the Netherlands now that Russia is gone. However the Dutch are scaling down gas operations because of earth quake damage and most its LNG capability will be used internally. So that means no new gas contracts with 2 of their largest suppliers. Germany is going to need the little gas it has for heating and its industry. It's going to need all the gas it can save by using Nuclear for electricity (instead of gas) cold winter or not.
  - plextoria 4y ago
    At least the LNG terminal construction is sped up and “0 LNG” will hopefully not hold true for long.
- felixfbecker 4y ago
  Winters in Germany are cold, period. Source: I'm German and live in California now. Not a surprise to me that homes here don't have any heating at all, unthinkable in Germany. Old people would literally die. I have memories of when our heating would break down in some winters, living in an old building with bad insulation (which is very common). You could wear a thick jacket inside and a thick blanket but your hands are freezing so much you can't even type on a keyboard.
lm28469 4y ago
> Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Eeeeh not really, most building are heated by gas, the industry runs on gas, nuclear does't really help with either.
tomschlick 4y ago
> Who in their right mind Activist politicians who value their cause more than the well being of their citizens.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
- Siira 4y ago
  s/cause/selves/g
- bennysonething 4y ago
  I think they don't value the cause more, they value the status the cause gives them
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    This might be the sad reality of many once-authenthic-grassroot-movements.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Oh yeah, that's why even the Greens (owning their whole existence as a political party to the anti-nuclear movement of the 80s and 90s) is in favor of keeping those plants online a little bit longer. Remember, the current, and hastly implemented nuclear exit, was a CDU led kneejerk reaction, and rollback of the exit from the exit of nuclear, after Fukushima.
  - Phil_Latio 4y ago
    > that's why even the Greens is in favor of keeping those plants online a little bit longer. Since when? A few days, since the green party convention... Before that, the top figures unmistakenly said nuclear is dead, despite enegery crisis. > Remember, the current, and hastly implemented nuclear exit, was a CDU led kneejerk reaction So? And the greens would have exited even faster if they had the chance. Stop twisting things.
hef19898 4y ago
Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals stability to the energy markets, as those have been crazy lately.
- xg15 4y ago
  > Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. This would be the case during normal times. We're not in normal times though. There has been widespread panic buying of portable electric heaters all throughout summer. Owners of single-family homes are also increasingly switching to heat pumps as the main source of heating (as is strongly encouraged by the government). If we actually run into a gas crunch this winter, blackouts could ironically be a knock-on effect if everyone turns on their electric heater at the same time.
- legulere 4y ago
  It's also good for France, which currently has a shortfall of electricity and is heating with electricity.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Doesn't France only have a shortfall because rivers were low during summer and Nuclear Reactors couldn't produce regular outputs? The rivers won't be low in the winter.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      Around half of the reactors are shut down for maintenance. Some scheduled, others for faults discovered during inspection. They expect to be back online only at the beginning of 2023.
    - _dain_ 4y ago
DasIch 4y ago
Electricity does not magically create gas for heating. Electricity in europe is primarily threatened by France failing to adequately maintain their nuclear power plants.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Yes it does, Power-to-Gas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas
  - netrus 4y ago
    More importantly: Gas-to-power. This summer, for some time we were using more gas than in previous years, because there was not enough wind blowing for power generation. Blackouts must be prevented, so we will use it for power generation if necessary.
- jlmorton 4y ago
  No, but when natural gas is 15% of your electrical generation, it does magically free up natural gas that would have otherwise been burnt for electricity.
anm89 4y ago
Germany is still facing a very cold winter by all accounts. This will help around the margins
- Narretz 4y ago
  We don't even know how the temperatures are going to be. It currently points to an average / mild winter, so I don't know where you are getting "a very cold" winter from if the weather base isn't even there yet.
  - anm89 4y ago
    Cold in the sense that they will lack the resources to warm themselves through an average winter. I of course cannot predict the weather
preya2k 4y ago
I agree with your sentiment, but by no means does nuclear power "have no carbon footprint". It's still a very carbon-friendly technology, but it's definitely not carbon free. (See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_energy_sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_em...)
- weberer 4y ago
  Neat, nuclear power has only a quarter of the carbon footprint as solar. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/CO2_Emissions_from_Electricity_Production_IPCC.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/CO2_Emis...
  - danans 4y ago
    Nuclear and solar both have about 1/10th the carbon emissions of natural gas, and 1/20th the carbon emissions of coal.
- anonporridge 4y ago
  True, and yet solar photovoltaics has almost 4x the carbon footprint of nuclear fission per unit energy produced, and wind has approximately the same as nuclear. So, for the context of this conversation where Germany is prefering solar and wind to nuclear, and worse, turning to coal in place of natural gas, nuclear is effectively carbon free.
  - chihuahua 4y ago
    You're arguing with people who only see the downside of nuclear power, but refuse to see any downside to other sources of energy. Here we see this for the carbon footprint, but it's also the case many other impacts: Strip-mining for coal, devastating huge areas? This is fine. Radioactive emissions from burning coal? Don't care. Deaths caused by coal pollution and coal mining, compared to deaths caused by nuclear power? 'tis but a scratch. Permanent problems with groundwater caused by decades of coal mining? Lalala I can't hear you.
rossdavidh 4y ago
Well, I definitely agree with the decision, but at one point there were some valid things to consider: 1) they had been not doing normal routine maintenance that wasn't going to be needed if they were shutting down, and figuring out what all needs to be done to change gears does take some time (and careful thought) 2) they were at one time buying their fuel for nuclear plants from Russia Now I believe both of these points have been addressed, and I'm glad of it, but it was not totally unreasonable to raise them and not immediately change course.
- felixfbecker 4y ago
  The current plan I believe is to only run them until they run out of their current fuel. No new fuel was a "hard line" drawn by the green party to agree to extending at all.
ErikCorry 4y ago
Agreed. And I await apologies from everyone who said this wasn't technically possible.

V__ 4y ago

Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas (see edit) is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better. This winter also isn't predicted to be particularly cold, so the full gas storages in combination with the soon opening LNG-terminals will suffice. EDIT: I made a mistake, 10% of electricity is gas.

xg15 4y ago
> Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. A number of cities also use district heating, where the heat is taken directly from the cooling circuits of nearby power stations. No idea what percentage of total heating this is and if nuclear plants are involved here, but this would be another way how those plants could (theoretically) contribute to heating.
- V__ 4y ago
  Good point, and this is a thing in Switzerland, but not in Germany. Direct heating from nuclear plants, that is.
- YetAnotherNick 4y ago
  I wouldn't like nuclear water heating my house.
  - oynqr 4y ago
    I bet you don't travel by plane, either.
  - xg15 4y ago
    I mean... I usually belong to the anti-nuclear crowd, but even I don't think that would be an issue. From what I know, one of the iron rules of nuclear plant design is that the contaminated stuff never leaves the reactor building. Even the steam circuit that powers the generator is separated from the (contaminated) primary circuit and receives energy through a heat exchanger [1]. The lines for district heating would probably be separated from the primary circuit by several of those. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_exchanger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_exchanger
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    It's a separate circuit. That water never touches the reactor core.
  - llampx 4y ago
    This is the level of education the average German has.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity German household electricity is double the price of America’s and considerably higher than France or Italy [1]. Were this not the case, more houses could be heated with electricity instead of gas and the coming recession made less painful. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price...
- V__ 4y ago
  Absolutely. But the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now. The political procrastination of the last decades is biting Germany in the ass right now.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now It could make a dent if seriously pursued, e.g. by focussing transitioning vulnerable households. The economic benefits of reduced electricity prices would also immediately accrue.
    - V__ 4y ago
      There are currently multiple plans in the work and some already started. The goal right now is to install at least 500k heat-pumps per year. But, there aren't enough skilled heating contractors, so they are working on solving this as well.
- merb 4y ago
  Comparing france with germany is stupid. Btw these prices are old for Europe, you can basically x2 them (except france) the reason hey it is stupid, is because 0,19 is the number that the people Pay, But Not the actual number (they have fixed pricing kinda) In fact france would be more expansive now, than germany.
arcticbull 4y ago
> The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better. Oh no, here's hoping they learned a lesson from that money. Without affordable gas, they'll be buying electric heaters. I believe that's already under way. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costly-fan-heaters-gas-shortage-fears-bite-2022-09-11/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costl...
- V__ 4y ago
  Right now, gas prices are falling (since the gas storages are full) and federal assistance is currently in the works. So, while possible, I don't know how likely of a problem this will be.
  - timmg 4y ago
    Above you pointed out the high cost of replacing fuel rods. How does that compare to the “federal assistance” required to pay bloated gas bills?
    - V__ 4y ago
      Also maintenance, but still in comparison, it probably isn't a lot. The last figure I have is about 17 billion for all those federal programs and investments (but those include cheaper public transport tickets as well as other things). However, I don't thing those costs are comparable. Those nuclear plants won't have a dramatic impact on the price of gas or energy, so the cost of the federal programs will be there nonetheless.
      - timmg 4y ago
        > Those nuclear plants won't have a dramatic impact on the price of gas or energy, so the cost of the federal programs will be there nonetheless. Even if it doesn’t change the price of gas, wouldn’t it mean buying/burning less gas than you would otherwise? That, in itself, would be a huge savings. Maybe I’m just missing some data, but this seems like a no-brainer to me on several levels. It’s hard for me to understand anyone being against this.
belorn 4y ago
Wind conditions are more important question this winter than temperature. Good conditions will mean low power prices, meaning that industries, schools, apartment buildings and homes can afford to pay their bills without government bailing people out. A worse case scenario would had been windless cold winter with gas supplies empty, and a government that have to bailout both the industry, the government institutions, and private people. 3 nuclear power plants provides a bit of backup for that situation.
- V__ 4y ago
  That's true, but if it becomes that bad its really just drop in the bucket.
naasking 4y ago
> However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. Energy prices in Germany suggest otherwise. Also, Germany is facing a gas pinch given the geopolitics right now, so freeing up 10% is nothing to sneeze at.
- V__ 4y ago
  I made a mistake, 10% of electricity is gas. Due to the fact that nuclear is base load and gas plants are mostly used for grid compensation, it would result (according to estimates) in a 1-2% increase in gas usage.
  - naasking 4y ago
    Sorry, are you saying that keeping the nuclear reactors online will increase gas use by 1-2%?
    - V__ 4y ago
      Oh, that wasn't clear, sorry. Taking them offline would result in an estimated increase of gas by 1-2%.
plextoria 4y ago
It’s true that Germany might have enough electricity, but we are sharing with EU. And it so happens that in the biggest neighbor, France, half of the nuclear reactors are stopped for maintenance and the French might need to import considerable amounts of electricity this winter.
- V__ 4y ago
  They are planning to get them up and running till winter, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether this is achievable and if not how much of a problem that would be and if those three nuclear plants would make a difference.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    You could add cooling towers and they would not have had the problem. But it would still increase the costs further to a degree that it may not be viable anymore. The high energy prices in Germany are to a large degree political. For instance to make the switch to renewables. It doesn't mean the base cost of energy is high. It is in fact lower for the most part. The three plants don't do too much, only when you really need every Watt of energy you can muster. Not worthwhile economically to let them run really, as the decommission needs to be reorganized. The owners of the plant weren't too happy.
sllabres 4y ago
Yes, but it's not Germany alone. A lot of the electricity produced in Germany is exported to other countries. And if this is not longer possible this would be a problem for them too. More aggravating is the circumstance that France, another European country that usually exports electricity cannot too as many (half) of their fleet of nuclear reactors are in maintenance.
- V__ 4y ago
  They are planning to get them up and running till winter, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether this is achievable and if not how much of a problem that would be and if those three nuclear plants would make a difference.
  - sllabres 4y ago
    Doesn't look too good from my laymans point of view [1]: "Title: Maintenance on eight French nuclear reactors delayed by strike ... French nuclear availability is currently at 51% of total capacity with 26 reactors offline for maintenance." [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/edf-says-strike-hits-third-french-nuclear-plants-delaying-maintenance-work-2022-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/edf-says-strike-hits...
evilos 4y ago
Based on the fact that Berlin is planning for 2-3 hour* organized blackouts, I don't think they have enough electricity. EDIT: Not 2 to 3 blackouts, 2 to 3 hour blackouts. When grid is overstressed.
- V__ 4y ago
  I would hope they are planning for the worst-case. I want the government to have contingency plans. Doesn't mean it will happen.
  - evilos 4y ago
    That's the amazing thing. They are not. Most likely it will be far worse than they are imagining. I hope I am wrong.
    - V__ 4y ago
      I don't know about any evidence to support this claim. By law, industry will be shut down before any private home is affected. About 40% of gas and electricity is respectively used in industries. That means there is a lot of reserve before any home gets a blackout. Short term rolling blackout maybe, anything longer highly unlikely. EDIT: Just saw the edit. Yeah, that doesn't seem like a big deal to me. In 2019 after a damaged cable, there was a 31-hour blackout in some parts of Berlin. In comparison a 2 to 3 hour one happens all the time during storms etc.

papito 4y ago

It's more sinister than that. Russia was financially extremely incentivized to let this happen and indeed, it seems the so-called "environmental groups" in Germany and elsewhere are really fronts for the Russian government: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127... Designed to cynically "care" about the environment, but in reality meant to destroy Europe's energy independence.

xg15 4y ago
> It has recently come to light Are there any more specific references what exactly has come to light here? As it stands, this question just reads as a pretty cheap attempt to frame any and all environmental concerns or pro-renewable/anti-fossil fuel advocacy as russian propaganda. (which doesn't even make sense as gas itself is not renewable - greens usually see gas as the lesser evil compared to coal and nuclear but by no means as an end goal) The german environmental and anti-nuclear movement predates the reunification, let alone russian gas deals or putin. While there might be some groups who are russian fronts or receive russian funding, the majority of the movement has quite strong motivations of its own. This doesn't even take the "new" parts of the climate movement into account, such as Fridays for Future.
- papito 4y ago
  Sure. How about Fox News? https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-funding-environmental-groups-europe-united-state https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-funding-environmental-g...

throw827474737 4y ago

> Germany was facing a cold winter Yaaawn.. this doomsday propaganda is really getting old, and lets meet in 6 month again and lets see how much impact and necessity those 3 plants had at all on heating here.. Wait, your are likely not from Germany nor even Europe and state "Germany was facing a cold winter" like fact based on what please?

jsiepkes 4y ago
Germany has 0 LNG capability and is for Gas largely dependent on the Netherlands now that Russia is gone. However the Dutch are scaling down gas operations because of earth quake damage and most its LNG capability will be used internally. So that means no new gas contracts with 2 of their largest suppliers. Germany is going to need the little gas it has for heating and its industry. It's going to need all the gas it can save by using Nuclear for electricity (instead of gas) cold winter or not.
- plextoria 4y ago
  At least the LNG terminal construction is sped up and “0 LNG” will hopefully not hold true for long.
felixfbecker 4y ago
Winters in Germany are cold, period. Source: I'm German and live in California now. Not a surprise to me that homes here don't have any heating at all, unthinkable in Germany. Old people would literally die. I have memories of when our heating would break down in some winters, living in an old building with bad insulation (which is very common). You could wear a thick jacket inside and a thick blanket but your hands are freezing so much you can't even type on a keyboard.

lm28469 4y ago

> Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Eeeeh not really, most building are heated by gas, the industry runs on gas, nuclear does't really help with either.

tomschlick 4y ago

> Who in their right mind Activist politicians who value their cause more than the well being of their citizens.

daniel-cussen 4y ago
Siira 4y ago
s/cause/selves/g
bennysonething 4y ago
I think they don't value the cause more, they value the status the cause gives them
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  This might be the sad reality of many once-authenthic-grassroot-movements.
hef19898 4y ago
Oh yeah, that's why even the Greens (owning their whole existence as a political party to the anti-nuclear movement of the 80s and 90s) is in favor of keeping those plants online a little bit longer. Remember, the current, and hastly implemented nuclear exit, was a CDU led kneejerk reaction, and rollback of the exit from the exit of nuclear, after Fukushima.
- Phil_Latio 4y ago
  > that's why even the Greens is in favor of keeping those plants online a little bit longer. Since when? A few days, since the green party convention... Before that, the top figures unmistakenly said nuclear is dead, despite enegery crisis. > Remember, the current, and hastly implemented nuclear exit, was a CDU led kneejerk reaction So? And the greens would have exited even faster if they had the chance. Stop twisting things.

hef19898 4y ago

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals stability to the energy markets, as those have been crazy lately.

xg15 4y ago
> Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. This would be the case during normal times. We're not in normal times though. There has been widespread panic buying of portable electric heaters all throughout summer. Owners of single-family homes are also increasingly switching to heat pumps as the main source of heating (as is strongly encouraged by the government). If we actually run into a gas crunch this winter, blackouts could ironically be a knock-on effect if everyone turns on their electric heater at the same time.
legulere 4y ago
It's also good for France, which currently has a shortfall of electricity and is heating with electricity.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Doesn't France only have a shortfall because rivers were low during summer and Nuclear Reactors couldn't produce regular outputs? The rivers won't be low in the winter.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Around half of the reactors are shut down for maintenance. Some scheduled, others for faults discovered during inspection. They expect to be back online only at the beginning of 2023.
  - _dain_ 4y ago

DasIch 4y ago

Electricity does not magically create gas for heating. Electricity in europe is primarily threatened by France failing to adequately maintain their nuclear power plants.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Yes it does, Power-to-Gas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas
- netrus 4y ago
  More importantly: Gas-to-power. This summer, for some time we were using more gas than in previous years, because there was not enough wind blowing for power generation. Blackouts must be prevented, so we will use it for power generation if necessary.
jlmorton 4y ago
No, but when natural gas is 15% of your electrical generation, it does magically free up natural gas that would have otherwise been burnt for electricity.

anm89 4y ago

Germany is still facing a very cold winter by all accounts. This will help around the margins

Narretz 4y ago
We don't even know how the temperatures are going to be. It currently points to an average / mild winter, so I don't know where you are getting "a very cold" winter from if the weather base isn't even there yet.
- anm89 4y ago
  Cold in the sense that they will lack the resources to warm themselves through an average winter. I of course cannot predict the weather

preya2k 4y ago

I agree with your sentiment, but by no means does nuclear power "have no carbon footprint". It's still a very carbon-friendly technology, but it's definitely not carbon free. (See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_energy_sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_em...)

weberer 4y ago
Neat, nuclear power has only a quarter of the carbon footprint as solar. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/CO2_Emissions_from_Electricity_Production_IPCC.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/CO2_Emis...
- danans 4y ago
  Nuclear and solar both have about 1/10th the carbon emissions of natural gas, and 1/20th the carbon emissions of coal.
anonporridge 4y ago
True, and yet solar photovoltaics has almost 4x the carbon footprint of nuclear fission per unit energy produced, and wind has approximately the same as nuclear. So, for the context of this conversation where Germany is prefering solar and wind to nuclear, and worse, turning to coal in place of natural gas, nuclear is effectively carbon free.
- chihuahua 4y ago
  You're arguing with people who only see the downside of nuclear power, but refuse to see any downside to other sources of energy. Here we see this for the carbon footprint, but it's also the case many other impacts: Strip-mining for coal, devastating huge areas? This is fine. Radioactive emissions from burning coal? Don't care. Deaths caused by coal pollution and coal mining, compared to deaths caused by nuclear power? 'tis but a scratch. Permanent problems with groundwater caused by decades of coal mining? Lalala I can't hear you.

rossdavidh 4y ago

Well, I definitely agree with the decision, but at one point there were some valid things to consider: 1) they had been not doing normal routine maintenance that wasn't going to be needed if they were shutting down, and figuring out what all needs to be done to change gears does take some time (and careful thought) 2) they were at one time buying their fuel for nuclear plants from Russia Now I believe both of these points have been addressed, and I'm glad of it, but it was not totally unreasonable to raise them and not immediately change course.

felixfbecker 4y ago
The current plan I believe is to only run them until they run out of their current fuel. No new fuel was a "hard line" drawn by the green party to agree to extending at all.

ErikCorry 4y ago

Agreed. And I await apologies from everyone who said this wasn't technically possible.