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> but I can see almost anyone falling into the exact same trap hes fallen into if they lived his life. Kanye is a garden variety manic-depressive. It has likel

> but I can see almost anyone falling into the exact same trap hes fallen into if they lived his life. Kanye is a garden variety manic-depressive. It has likely been exacerbated by stress and self-medicating with the wrong drugs, causing instability, paranoia and delusion. Bipolar disorder is genetic, it doesn't develop due to no one being able to say "no" to them. What you are describing, however, is one way that Narcissistic Personality Disorder can develop. Successful individuals are more at risk of NPD. One of the biggest issues is that NPD patients usually don't suffer, so they rarely seek treatment, which can correct if not cure the disorder in under 2 years, rare among psychological disorders. But the symptoms of NPD not only include an exaggerated sense of self-importance, but also an inability or fear of criticism, and exceptionally strong denial. Narcissists don't listen to anyone, such as those that are trying to help them, yet they require constant admiration. It is likely West has one of the more benign flavors of NPD, at least, I haven't heard he is violent nor of reports of him berating and belittling others (though I do not follow celebrities). I think his biggest problem is BPD and drug abuse (though the self-medication may be keeping him alive, it is far less than an ideal solution), but due to the combination with NPD and vast wealth, and probably being surrounded by those that will never deny him his insane impulses, he's probably not going to get help until he bottoms out in clinical major depression for months, if he survives it. BPD must be maintained, and if it isn't, inevitably the train leaves the rails.

vba616 4y ago
> Bipolar disorder is genetic It is not. The question has been settled on a huge scale by historical events. If illnesses like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia were meaningfully caused by genetic factors, then the Nazi genocide of mentally ill people would have caused a dramatic and lasting reduction in mental illness post-war among the affected population. It didn't. You might also ask yourself, if something is genetic, shouldn't identical twins (preferably raised apart) both get it or both not get it? Obviously that situation is rare, but researchers do seek out and study instances.
- vba616 4y ago
  Mental illness is a social phenomenon. There are lots of physical explanations for symptoms similar to psychosis - drugs, infection, immune disorders, chemotherapy, professional head trauma addict, but when nothing else clearly fits, "mentally ill" is the default, the end of the "switch" statement. The social construction of the category is embodied by the admission process at a hospital's mental ward. They literally go down the various causes that they can check for a disordered mental state, and if they can't find anything else, that is mental illness, end of story. In fact, lots of abnormal blood tests may be ignored if they don't fit into an obvious pattern. The meaning of the term is defined by what people with the power to assign it do. There is no abstract essence of it beyond the process as enacted. It's a label that serves a critical function of allowing society to abandon difficult diagnoses and redirect resources to others permanently. It doesn't represent an illness, but the lack of understanding what it is. This is not at all the same as the (unknown) constituent disorders being unphysical or one single entity. It's sort of like the "scientific creationists" that keep finding God in the gaps of science. There's always something left, but either you have faith in naturalistic explanations or not. If you aren't satisfied with science, you can't talk as though there is such a thing as scientific fact about the scientifically unknown, and implicitly lump it all together.
- Maursault 4y ago
  > If illnesses like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia were meaningfully caused by genetic factors, then the Nazi genocide of mentally ill people would have caused a dramatic and lasting reduction in mental illness post-war among the affected population. It didn't. Citation needed. The population of Germany alone in 1940 was over 70M people. The Nazi's killed an estimated 230K disabled individuals, including the physically disabled and the mentally ill. That only accounts for 3 tenths of a percent of the population, but ~50% of any population will be diagnosed with a mental illness at some point in their lifetime, so their efforts were astoundingly insufficient from a mathematical perspective. But whether someone is bipolar or not is not a simple trait like whether their earlobes are connected or whether they can roll their tongue. A massive genome study identified at least 64 regions of the genome that are associated with an increased risk of bipolar disorder. But even if it were a simple trait, there is such thing as recessive traits, so the Nazi's agenda was, of course, totally insane and could never be successful from a genetic perspective. Schizophrenia tends to run in families, but no single gene is thought to be responsible. Bipolar disorder is the most likely psychiatric disorder to be passed down genetically. If one parent has bipolar disorder, there's a 10% chance that their child will develop the illness.
deleted 4y ago
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cwkoss 4y ago
Personality disorders aren't curable. > I haven't heard he is violent nor of reports of him berating and belittling others I haven't heard about violence, but berating and belittling others seems common for him - it's practically his brand
- Maursault 4y ago
  > Personality disorders aren't curable. Incorrect. There is no single cure for personality disorders, but that doesn't mean they can't be cured. Any mental illness that is not genetic and which develops due to external causes can be cured. There are many personality disorders, of which NPD is one. While there is no single cure for NPD, in fact NPD can be cured in many cases in one of two ways. Some can be cured relatively quickly with an antidepressant, which eliminates the symptoms, but most with NPD can either mitigate the disorder or completely cure it though talk therapy generally in under two years. It's absolutely true that one can learn to stop being an asshole.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    Both you and parent are likely incorrect. The truth is, curability depends on a number of things which we currently lack the correct insight and models to correctly analyze. It's likely case-by-case, and ad-hoc, based on the extremely complex history of the individual. But most importantly, we don't know, so making broad, absolutist claims is a waste of time.
  - wuschel 4y ago
    > There is not single cure for personality disorders (/) NPD (…) I presume this is because the classification of these disorders is way to broad and unspecific as opposed to hard science diagnostics. > (…) through talk therapy generally under two years Would you have a good source for that e.g. a meta study?
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    Personality disorders can be treated and managed, but not cured. Like PTSD, just because a disorder is caused by external factors does not mean that it is reversible.
anm89 4y ago
This is word salad. A bunch of psycho-babel that gives the impression of a deep understanding of the human psyche when in reality it shows at best the ability to memorize the criteria around a few invented categories and give a horoscope based off of them. I wouldn't make a point of saying this on other topics but it's crazy how much damage this stuff causes to people's lives
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  Spot on. Armchair psychiatrists seem to love to diagnoze the people they don't like with various disorders as a way of insulting by proxy. Since when is a celebrity writing contraversial stuff on Twitter a big deal?
  - Maursault 4y ago
    Ad hominem fallacy.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- Maursault 4y ago
  Vagueness fallacy as well as as hominem argument. If you disagree with what I've said, you must specifically speak to it. Handwaving and attacking me personally will never be persuasive.
  - anm89 4y ago
    Do you apply this same stict framework to your medical diagnoses you are handing out for people you've never met over the internet? I don't need to catalogue the fallacies to point out why this is not a good idea. This is also ironically vague and there is literally no ad hominem in there. Word salad is critique of the quality of the discourse, not of the person making it. Also fallacy fallacy, just for good measure
dpifke 4y ago
(Retracting my comment. Kanye West has publicly talked about having bipolar disorder, see link below. Thank you to toomuchtodo for digging up that reference!)
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/kanye-west-bipolar-disorder.html https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/kanye-west-bipolar-disorder.h... > Kanye, who is now legally known by his nickname, Ye, was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after being hospitalized for a psychiatric emergency in 2016. In the years since, he’s spoken about experiencing manic episodes, often tweeting and performing through them. He has famously referred to bipolar disorder as his “superpower,” and spoke candidly about the stigma around mental illness on David Letterman’s show in 2019. “I ramp up, I go high,” he said of his episodes, describing feelings of paranoia and delusions, as well as being handcuffed, drugged, and hospitalized. https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+npd+narcissist https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+npd+narcissist https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+drug+abuse+addiction https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+drug+abuse+addiction (In no way is this comment intended to be derogatory towards any party, only citations)
  - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
    He's been open about being bipolar since before his first album. Check out the song Gossip Flies at 6:48 https://youtu.be/a7SoMfT3PTw https://youtu.be/a7SoMfT3PTw
    - Maursault 4y ago
      In general, mental illness should be kept jealously private and only discussed with one's therapist, but this is in regards to the patient protecting themselves. Kanye can do what he wants, but if he is glorifying BPD (I have no idea), then he is indulging in his symptoms and heading towards cautionary tale rather than being a positive role model for other BPD patients and an advocate or activist for mental health, such as Patty Duke, Carrie Fisher, Catherine Zeta Jones, Trevor Noah, and many other celebrities. Life is hard for the mentally ill, and though I'm sure a couple billion dollars can make a huge difference, most BPD patients will end up institutionalized, in prison, or dead repeating Kenye's mistakes. I'm not saying monetizing one's own mental illness is necessarily wrong, and I think many have been successful throughout history doing so, especially in art, without causing harm. But living in the spotlight, whether intentionally or not, one should, like Spider-Man, recognize there is great responsibility, and take the positive and negative effect it has on others seriously. Again, I don't know what Kenye is doing, only getting glimpses from headlines I can't avoid.
krustyburger 4y ago
What drugs do you think he’s abusing? That’s quite a claim to make.
- junofan 4y ago
  IIRC it came up in a couple lawsuits with his insurance company a while back.

vba616 4y ago

> Bipolar disorder is genetic It is not. The question has been settled on a huge scale by historical events. If illnesses like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia were meaningfully caused by genetic factors, then the Nazi genocide of mentally ill people would have caused a dramatic and lasting reduction in mental illness post-war among the affected population. It didn't. You might also ask yourself, if something is genetic, shouldn't identical twins (preferably raised apart) both get it or both not get it? Obviously that situation is rare, but researchers do seek out and study instances.

vba616 4y ago
Mental illness is a social phenomenon. There are lots of physical explanations for symptoms similar to psychosis - drugs, infection, immune disorders, chemotherapy, professional head trauma addict, but when nothing else clearly fits, "mentally ill" is the default, the end of the "switch" statement. The social construction of the category is embodied by the admission process at a hospital's mental ward. They literally go down the various causes that they can check for a disordered mental state, and if they can't find anything else, that is mental illness, end of story. In fact, lots of abnormal blood tests may be ignored if they don't fit into an obvious pattern. The meaning of the term is defined by what people with the power to assign it do. There is no abstract essence of it beyond the process as enacted. It's a label that serves a critical function of allowing society to abandon difficult diagnoses and redirect resources to others permanently. It doesn't represent an illness, but the lack of understanding what it is. This is not at all the same as the (unknown) constituent disorders being unphysical or one single entity. It's sort of like the "scientific creationists" that keep finding God in the gaps of science. There's always something left, but either you have faith in naturalistic explanations or not. If you aren't satisfied with science, you can't talk as though there is such a thing as scientific fact about the scientifically unknown, and implicitly lump it all together.
Maursault 4y ago
> If illnesses like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia were meaningfully caused by genetic factors, then the Nazi genocide of mentally ill people would have caused a dramatic and lasting reduction in mental illness post-war among the affected population. It didn't. Citation needed. The population of Germany alone in 1940 was over 70M people. The Nazi's killed an estimated 230K disabled individuals, including the physically disabled and the mentally ill. That only accounts for 3 tenths of a percent of the population, but ~50% of any population will be diagnosed with a mental illness at some point in their lifetime, so their efforts were astoundingly insufficient from a mathematical perspective. But whether someone is bipolar or not is not a simple trait like whether their earlobes are connected or whether they can roll their tongue. A massive genome study identified at least 64 regions of the genome that are associated with an increased risk of bipolar disorder. But even if it were a simple trait, there is such thing as recessive traits, so the Nazi's agenda was, of course, totally insane and could never be successful from a genetic perspective. Schizophrenia tends to run in families, but no single gene is thought to be responsible. Bipolar disorder is the most likely psychiatric disorder to be passed down genetically. If one parent has bipolar disorder, there's a 10% chance that their child will develop the illness.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cwkoss 4y ago

Personality disorders aren't curable. > I haven't heard he is violent nor of reports of him berating and belittling others I haven't heard about violence, but berating and belittling others seems common for him - it's practically his brand

Maursault 4y ago
> Personality disorders aren't curable. Incorrect. There is no single cure for personality disorders, but that doesn't mean they can't be cured. Any mental illness that is not genetic and which develops due to external causes can be cured. There are many personality disorders, of which NPD is one. While there is no single cure for NPD, in fact NPD can be cured in many cases in one of two ways. Some can be cured relatively quickly with an antidepressant, which eliminates the symptoms, but most with NPD can either mitigate the disorder or completely cure it though talk therapy generally in under two years. It's absolutely true that one can learn to stop being an asshole.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  Both you and parent are likely incorrect. The truth is, curability depends on a number of things which we currently lack the correct insight and models to correctly analyze. It's likely case-by-case, and ad-hoc, based on the extremely complex history of the individual. But most importantly, we don't know, so making broad, absolutist claims is a waste of time.
- wuschel 4y ago
  > There is not single cure for personality disorders (/) NPD (…) I presume this is because the classification of these disorders is way to broad and unspecific as opposed to hard science diagnostics. > (…) through talk therapy generally under two years Would you have a good source for that e.g. a meta study?
- cwkoss 4y ago
  Personality disorders can be treated and managed, but not cured. Like PTSD, just because a disorder is caused by external factors does not mean that it is reversible.

anm89 4y ago

This is word salad. A bunch of psycho-babel that gives the impression of a deep understanding of the human psyche when in reality it shows at best the ability to memorize the criteria around a few invented categories and give a horoscope based off of them. I wouldn't make a point of saying this on other topics but it's crazy how much damage this stuff causes to people's lives

bheadmaster 4y ago
Spot on. Armchair psychiatrists seem to love to diagnoze the people they don't like with various disorders as a way of insulting by proxy. Since when is a celebrity writing contraversial stuff on Twitter a big deal?
- Maursault 4y ago
  Ad hominem fallacy.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
Maursault 4y ago
Vagueness fallacy as well as as hominem argument. If you disagree with what I've said, you must specifically speak to it. Handwaving and attacking me personally will never be persuasive.
- anm89 4y ago
  Do you apply this same stict framework to your medical diagnoses you are handing out for people you've never met over the internet? I don't need to catalogue the fallacies to point out why this is not a good idea. This is also ironically vague and there is literally no ad hominem in there. Word salad is critique of the quality of the discourse, not of the person making it. Also fallacy fallacy, just for good measure

dpifke 4y ago

(Retracting my comment. Kanye West has publicly talked about having bipolar disorder, see link below. Thank you to toomuchtodo for digging up that reference!)

toomuchtodo 4y ago
https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/kanye-west-bipolar-disorder.html https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/kanye-west-bipolar-disorder.h... > Kanye, who is now legally known by his nickname, Ye, was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after being hospitalized for a psychiatric emergency in 2016. In the years since, he’s spoken about experiencing manic episodes, often tweeting and performing through them. He has famously referred to bipolar disorder as his “superpower,” and spoke candidly about the stigma around mental illness on David Letterman’s show in 2019. “I ramp up, I go high,” he said of his episodes, describing feelings of paranoia and delusions, as well as being handcuffed, drugged, and hospitalized. https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+npd+narcissist https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+npd+narcissist https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+drug+abuse+addiction https://www.google.com/search?q=kanye+drug+abuse+addiction (In no way is this comment intended to be derogatory towards any party, only citations)
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
  He's been open about being bipolar since before his first album. Check out the song Gossip Flies at 6:48 https://youtu.be/a7SoMfT3PTw https://youtu.be/a7SoMfT3PTw
  - Maursault 4y ago
    In general, mental illness should be kept jealously private and only discussed with one's therapist, but this is in regards to the patient protecting themselves. Kanye can do what he wants, but if he is glorifying BPD (I have no idea), then he is indulging in his symptoms and heading towards cautionary tale rather than being a positive role model for other BPD patients and an advocate or activist for mental health, such as Patty Duke, Carrie Fisher, Catherine Zeta Jones, Trevor Noah, and many other celebrities. Life is hard for the mentally ill, and though I'm sure a couple billion dollars can make a huge difference, most BPD patients will end up institutionalized, in prison, or dead repeating Kenye's mistakes. I'm not saying monetizing one's own mental illness is necessarily wrong, and I think many have been successful throughout history doing so, especially in art, without causing harm. But living in the spotlight, whether intentionally or not, one should, like Spider-Man, recognize there is great responsibility, and take the positive and negative effect it has on others seriously. Again, I don't know what Kenye is doing, only getting glimpses from headlines I can't avoid.

krustyburger 4y ago

What drugs do you think he’s abusing? That’s quite a claim to make.

junofan 4y ago
IIRC it came up in a couple lawsuits with his insurance company a while back.