5 ms·

This is due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. When efficiency gains mean that a business's main costs are labor, then attempts to increase profit w

This is due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. When efficiency gains mean that a business's main costs are labor, then attempts to increase profit will be focused on cutting labor costs. It would be hard to get away with actually decreasing wages and salaries, so they get effectively frozen against rising efficiency and inflation (which we've seen happening for the last 40 years). But soon this becomes the new ceiling, and labor costs must keep getting cut, otherwise profits don't increase (at the expected rate). That's when we start seeing the laborer take on the costs of working: transportation, uniforms, training, etc. Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices? Having to own the latest iPhone just to test on, because the company won't provide it but expects iOS compatibility? This is why labor rights organizations matter. Employers are guided by a very simple algorithm, whose total application to all job markets leads to the immiseration of all people who have to work for a living. This is also why solidarity matters: when we are in a position to make demands of employers, we are morally obligated to make demands also in the name of those employees who are powerless. First they came for the blue-collars, but I didn't care because my collar was white. Next they came for the wage workers, but I didn't care because I had a salary. When they finally came for me, there was no one else left to care.

akomtu 4y ago
My simplistic mental model of our society is the motion of celestial bodies under the force of greed. The upside is that greed keeps things in motion. The downside is that eventually those thing tend to form big clumps that pull the surrounding matter at the rate proportional to the size of the clump. The anti-trust laws are supposed to be intelligent forces that break up such clumps. There is, probably, an equivalent of the black hole: an indestructible organisation with such force of greed that nothing can escape it; in practice it would be some unholy union of state and business, a corporation that writes laws for itself, has an army and doesn't answer to anyone.
- routerl 4y ago
  > it would be some unholy union of state and business, a corporation that writes laws for itself, has an army and doesn't answer to anyone. William Gibson liked the term "Zaibatsu"[0]. See also the textbook definitions of "neoliberalism", and "fascism". [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu
- pyuser583 4y ago
  > the motion of celestial bodies under the force of greed This is pretty much his Aristotle thought the planets moved … by angels/demons motivated by greed. I loved studying Aristotle, but the man could think himself into a hole. Edit: the intelligences move the celestial spheres “as ends” - that is, their being desired (not their desiring) causes them to move the the celestial spheres. Sorry for the confusion on that.
jjav 4y ago
> Having to own the latest iPhone just to test on, because the company won't provide it but expects iOS compatibility? The previous company I was in did mostly require bringing in a personal smartphone to function. As I didn't own one, that caused all kinds of amusing (to me) commotion. Eventually some workarounds were set up. But that should be non-negotiable. If company needs me to have $FOO to work, company must pay and give me said $FOO.
ornornor 4y ago
> Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices? IANAL at all, but from my own research a few years back, part of the contractor test in North America and other countries is “who is providing and paying for the tools”. And when the answer is “not me”, it’s a strong indicator you’re an employee. Ergo if you’re an employee, the employer must pay for the tools to do the job (as in legally must)
- sokoloff 4y ago
  The “who provides the tools?” is just one test among several, which is not enough to conclude the employer legally must provide tools to employees under all circumstances.
- ticviking 4y ago
  Absent a union it’s really hard to enforce those rules
  - ornornor 4y ago
    True. But it seems like the wind is turning a little in the US about unions.
- wingspar 4y ago
  My understanding of the mechanics with their own tools was for the practical matter of stopping theft/damage. You’re much more likely to keep your tools in working order and not let them walk away if they’re your tools. Equipment the shop supplies is less likely to walk away. Like a 100gal air compressor or car lift.
- JamesianP 4y ago
  The contractor tests differ between fields though. The laws were written specifically to go after the big software consulting industry that appears a few decades ago to force them to become employees. They grandfathered in other job roles that were historically operating over the line one way or another.
giantg2 4y ago
"Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices?" There are BYOD companies. They would probably be more common if licensing and security didn't matter. Yes and no the the own tools thing. It depends on the shop and the type of tools. Their own wrenches, sockets, and other small tools might make sense (especially if they avoid Snap-On). The air tool infrastructure, lifts, alignment rack, tire mounting/balancing machine, etc are all shop supplied.
- asdff 4y ago
  If a company makes you BYOD, you should be able to bill them for wear, just like how you bill them for gas and wear to your personal vehicle when they make you drive to a conference or something else like that.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> This is due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. When efficiency gains mean that a business's main costs are labor, then attempts to increase profit will be focused on cutting labor costs. I think it is better characterized as demand for labor falling relative to supply of labor. Obviously everyone wants to cut all costs all the time, but whether or not they can depends on supply and demand.
- routerl 4y ago
  > Obviously everyone wants to cut all costs all the time Why would this be obvious? I've worked in companies whose revenue grew so quickly that no one could be bothered to cut existing costs. It literally wouldn't be cost effective to do anything but grow revenue. Cutting costs is just one half of the equation.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Outside of VC pump and dump markets, business owners are incentivized to increase net income = revenue - expenses for their own utility and because they have competitors who are working to lure their customers by offering lowering prices. It is possible that in an explosive growth business area with little to zero marginal costs, focusing solely on revenue and ignoring costs in the short term makes sense, but it is not sustainable. Even then, there is never a blank check for labor costs so someone somewhere will notice a number being too high.
    - routerl 4y ago
      You've echoed my point exactly. Different scenarios call for different approaches. Cutting costs is only one half of the equation.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
teeray 4y ago
> Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? A good set of Snap On wrenches are practically family heirlooms. My dad has a set from the 60s that he bought from a family friend, and they’re still going strong. I personally wouldn’t mind doing BYOD, because I like investing in my own tools for my own purposes as well as employment. All the ceremony and corpware around “company data” is why I use company equipment.
- viridian 4y ago
  These days you don't buy snap on for the quality, but for their ability to quickly service a warranty issue. Their tools have the same problems as everyone else's these days, and long gone are the times when they handily outperformed everyone else on durability, tolerances to spec, etc. Just another reason to cherish those old tools, they literally don't make them like they used to.
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    Do they not make them anymore at any price? Like inflation adjusted how much did the tools cost back in the day vs now?
    - viridian 4y ago
      The tools were significantly more expensive even as recently as the 90's, inflation adjusted, probably about 3x as much for hand tools on average. I couldn't say for power tools, as you are getting a lot of innovation that's hard to put a price on in that time frame, whereas with hand tools you are basically getting some decent alternatives in the realm of materials engineering with things like fiberglass, various coatigngs like cerakote, etc. One other thing to mention is that there are companies that make hand tools that outperform snap-on handily these days, even if they struggle against some aged tools. If you are interested in an empirical look at this sort of analysis, side by side, Project Farm on Youtube has covered most hand tools by major brands at this point. Also worth noting that while the ceiling on quality has lowered, the floor for most major manufacturers seems to have raised as well. A random modern hand tool is usually more likely to break the thing you are working against than to break itself, and I can't even remember the last time I've seen a hammer lose its head, a screwdriver tip get stripped out by a steel screw, a wrench snap at the neck, etc.
mywittyname 4y ago
> Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices? I prefer this, as a lot of companies provide crappy equipment. However, this doesn't work beyond the tiniest of companies because any COO worth their salt would flip their lid at having uncontrolled, outside equipment on their network. You really can't be sure about BYOC, especially with tech-savvy workers. > Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? The dealership also provides them with the expensive equipment they need to do their job. Yeah, mechanics have their own tool boxes with the basics, but they don't provide their own lifts, alignment racks, diagnostic software, etc. It's pretty similar to the system I'm in, I provide my own monitors, keyboards, desk, chair, etc, while my company provides my laptop, software and cloud platform.
maybelsyrup 4y ago
This is one of the better HN comments I’ve ever read on labor matters. Cheers.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Bringing your own tools can have massive benefits as long as the pay is in line with owning those tools. The biggest issue is starting capital, as is the true for the status quo unless your educational institute provides free devices. Of course there are limits (you probably shouldn't be expected to own your own mocap lab), but most individuals will already have a device given the relatively low price even with company-provided materials. The issue being more, these things are removed without giving anything else in return.

akomtu 4y ago

My simplistic mental model of our society is the motion of celestial bodies under the force of greed. The upside is that greed keeps things in motion. The downside is that eventually those thing tend to form big clumps that pull the surrounding matter at the rate proportional to the size of the clump. The anti-trust laws are supposed to be intelligent forces that break up such clumps. There is, probably, an equivalent of the black hole: an indestructible organisation with such force of greed that nothing can escape it; in practice it would be some unholy union of state and business, a corporation that writes laws for itself, has an army and doesn't answer to anyone.

routerl 4y ago
> it would be some unholy union of state and business, a corporation that writes laws for itself, has an army and doesn't answer to anyone. William Gibson liked the term "Zaibatsu"[0]. See also the textbook definitions of "neoliberalism", and "fascism". [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu
pyuser583 4y ago
> the motion of celestial bodies under the force of greed This is pretty much his Aristotle thought the planets moved … by angels/demons motivated by greed. I loved studying Aristotle, but the man could think himself into a hole. Edit: the intelligences move the celestial spheres “as ends” - that is, their being desired (not their desiring) causes them to move the the celestial spheres. Sorry for the confusion on that.

jjav 4y ago

> Having to own the latest iPhone just to test on, because the company won't provide it but expects iOS compatibility? The previous company I was in did mostly require bringing in a personal smartphone to function. As I didn't own one, that caused all kinds of amusing (to me) commotion. Eventually some workarounds were set up. But that should be non-negotiable. If company needs me to have $FOO to work, company must pay and give me said $FOO.

ornornor 4y ago

> Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices? IANAL at all, but from my own research a few years back, part of the contractor test in North America and other countries is “who is providing and paying for the tools”. And when the answer is “not me”, it’s a strong indicator you’re an employee. Ergo if you’re an employee, the employer must pay for the tools to do the job (as in legally must)

sokoloff 4y ago
The “who provides the tools?” is just one test among several, which is not enough to conclude the employer legally must provide tools to employees under all circumstances.
ticviking 4y ago
Absent a union it’s really hard to enforce those rules
- ornornor 4y ago
  True. But it seems like the wind is turning a little in the US about unions.
wingspar 4y ago
My understanding of the mechanics with their own tools was for the practical matter of stopping theft/damage. You’re much more likely to keep your tools in working order and not let them walk away if they’re your tools. Equipment the shop supplies is less likely to walk away. Like a 100gal air compressor or car lift.
JamesianP 4y ago
The contractor tests differ between fields though. The laws were written specifically to go after the big software consulting industry that appears a few decades ago to force them to become employees. They grandfathered in other job roles that were historically operating over the line one way or another.

giantg2 4y ago

"Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices?" There are BYOD companies. They would probably be more common if licensing and security didn't matter. Yes and no the the own tools thing. It depends on the shop and the type of tools. Their own wrenches, sockets, and other small tools might make sense (especially if they avoid Snap-On). The air tool infrastructure, lifts, alignment rack, tire mounting/balancing machine, etc are all shop supplied.

asdff 4y ago
If a company makes you BYOD, you should be able to bill them for wear, just like how you bill them for gas and wear to your personal vehicle when they make you drive to a conference or something else like that.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> This is due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. When efficiency gains mean that a business's main costs are labor, then attempts to increase profit will be focused on cutting labor costs. I think it is better characterized as demand for labor falling relative to supply of labor. Obviously everyone wants to cut all costs all the time, but whether or not they can depends on supply and demand.

routerl 4y ago
> Obviously everyone wants to cut all costs all the time Why would this be obvious? I've worked in companies whose revenue grew so quickly that no one could be bothered to cut existing costs. It literally wouldn't be cost effective to do anything but grow revenue. Cutting costs is just one half of the equation.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Outside of VC pump and dump markets, business owners are incentivized to increase net income = revenue - expenses for their own utility and because they have competitors who are working to lure their customers by offering lowering prices. It is possible that in an explosive growth business area with little to zero marginal costs, focusing solely on revenue and ignoring costs in the short term makes sense, but it is not sustainable. Even then, there is never a blank check for labor costs so someone somewhere will notice a number being too high.
  - routerl 4y ago
    You've echoed my point exactly. Different scenarios call for different approaches. Cutting costs is only one half of the equation.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

teeray 4y ago

> Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? A good set of Snap On wrenches are practically family heirlooms. My dad has a set from the 60s that he bought from a family friend, and they’re still going strong. I personally wouldn’t mind doing BYOD, because I like investing in my own tools for my own purposes as well as employment. All the ceremony and corpware around “company data” is why I use company equipment.

viridian 4y ago
These days you don't buy snap on for the quality, but for their ability to quickly service a warranty issue. Their tools have the same problems as everyone else's these days, and long gone are the times when they handily outperformed everyone else on durability, tolerances to spec, etc. Just another reason to cherish those old tools, they literally don't make them like they used to.
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Do they not make them anymore at any price? Like inflation adjusted how much did the tools cost back in the day vs now?
  - viridian 4y ago
    The tools were significantly more expensive even as recently as the 90's, inflation adjusted, probably about 3x as much for hand tools on average. I couldn't say for power tools, as you are getting a lot of innovation that's hard to put a price on in that time frame, whereas with hand tools you are basically getting some decent alternatives in the realm of materials engineering with things like fiberglass, various coatigngs like cerakote, etc. One other thing to mention is that there are companies that make hand tools that outperform snap-on handily these days, even if they struggle against some aged tools. If you are interested in an empirical look at this sort of analysis, side by side, Project Farm on Youtube has covered most hand tools by major brands at this point. Also worth noting that while the ceiling on quality has lowered, the floor for most major manufacturers seems to have raised as well. A random modern hand tool is usually more likely to break the thing you are working against than to break itself, and I can't even remember the last time I've seen a hammer lose its head, a screwdriver tip get stripped out by a steel screw, a wrench snap at the neck, etc.

mywittyname 4y ago

> Can you imagine developing software and having to bring your own computer and devices? I prefer this, as a lot of companies provide crappy equipment. However, this doesn't work beyond the tiniest of companies because any COO worth their salt would flip their lid at having uncontrolled, outside equipment on their network. You really can't be sure about BYOC, especially with tech-savvy workers. > Did you know that car mechanics have to buy their own tools? The dealership also provides them with the expensive equipment they need to do their job. Yeah, mechanics have their own tool boxes with the basics, but they don't provide their own lifts, alignment racks, diagnostic software, etc. It's pretty similar to the system I'm in, I provide my own monitors, keyboards, desk, chair, etc, while my company provides my laptop, software and cloud platform.

maybelsyrup 4y ago

This is one of the better HN comments I’ve ever read on labor matters. Cheers.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

Bringing your own tools can have massive benefits as long as the pay is in line with owning those tools. The biggest issue is starting capital, as is the true for the status quo unless your educational institute provides free devices. Of course there are limits (you probably shouldn't be expected to own your own mocap lab), but most individuals will already have a device given the relatively low price even with company-provided materials. The issue being more, these things are removed without giving anything else in return.