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Not a joke at all - and I fully agree that those spirals aren't common in regular everyday life because most people aren't dealing with malignant narcissists.

Not a joke at all - and I fully agree that those spirals aren't common in regular everyday life because most people aren't dealing with malignant narcissists. I work with "ordinary folks" everyday and have since forever. With only maybe one or two notable exceptions, if someone shares a personal story of being a victim in a sober way, I've never encountered anything other than sympathetic responses. Perhaps you are thinking of "suck it up" culture - which is emphatically not what we are discussing here, and is quite different - and one I have almost 20 years of experience with as a former Military Officer and Iraq war veteran.

MichaelZuo 4y ago
There is 'suck it up' and 'stiff upper lip' culture which by their nature are suspicious of claims of unusual victimhood. Though that is becoming less common nowadays. What I was referring to is that among nearly everyone I know of in the trades, I think very few, perhaps zero, would let even the most sober claim of victimhood go unremarked without a 'Really?', 'Uh-huh', upturned eyebrow, etc. Sure, if the claim doesn't seem too exaggerated or unusually suspicious they may not say anymore on it. That doesn't mean they fully believe the alleged victim. If it's someone they know to be genuine making the claim then I agree sympathetic responses are the norm, and even then they may still harbour doubts. But that's the point, they don't easily believe just anyone, nor do they care much about social status advantages, so they almost never get into these signalling games. The people who appear to easily trust anyone and appear to be sympathetic to every claim, are usually either very naive and sheltered or are very cunning and devious. Very few adults fall in-between.
- AndrewKemendo 4y ago
  I understand your perspective but I think it's a bit more cynical than reality actually is. Consider that Blackstone's ratio is a logical formalism of what I describe above as "giving the benefit of the doubt." Obviously the world is continuous and not discrete, so stochastic variability still counts and there will be ranges of credulity - however most people are more willing to "buy a story" than they are to be "aggressively incredulous" and as a result that's the perfect place for exploitative people to live. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
bombcar 4y ago
One difference between the "construction trades" and a "victim group" is that the first is setup around something else (working construction, working on a job) and the second is setup around a particular aspect (victim of X). In the first group, you're often better assuming "default open" (that everyone in the group is a non-narcissist) - in the second group you may need defenders to protect the members (or somehow combine the two types).
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
stoicism is useful to properly function in your life. For example, I was homeless as a teenager. Should I have just laid down and shown my belly to the world, or stand up on my own two feet and move forward with my life? It sucks, but at some point people have to be made of sterner stuff or they'll never accomplish anything. That doesn't mean the bad things that happen are ok, or that they shouldn't deal with them, but if you roll over and show your belly every time something bad happens to you then you're depending on other people for your success.

MichaelZuo 4y ago

There is 'suck it up' and 'stiff upper lip' culture which by their nature are suspicious of claims of unusual victimhood. Though that is becoming less common nowadays. What I was referring to is that among nearly everyone I know of in the trades, I think very few, perhaps zero, would let even the most sober claim of victimhood go unremarked without a 'Really?', 'Uh-huh', upturned eyebrow, etc. Sure, if the claim doesn't seem too exaggerated or unusually suspicious they may not say anymore on it. That doesn't mean they fully believe the alleged victim. If it's someone they know to be genuine making the claim then I agree sympathetic responses are the norm, and even then they may still harbour doubts. But that's the point, they don't easily believe just anyone, nor do they care much about social status advantages, so they almost never get into these signalling games. The people who appear to easily trust anyone and appear to be sympathetic to every claim, are usually either very naive and sheltered or are very cunning and devious. Very few adults fall in-between.

AndrewKemendo 4y ago
I understand your perspective but I think it's a bit more cynical than reality actually is. Consider that Blackstone's ratio is a logical formalism of what I describe above as "giving the benefit of the doubt." Obviously the world is continuous and not discrete, so stochastic variability still counts and there will be ranges of credulity - however most people are more willing to "buy a story" than they are to be "aggressively incredulous" and as a result that's the perfect place for exploitative people to live. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

bombcar 4y ago

One difference between the "construction trades" and a "victim group" is that the first is setup around something else (working construction, working on a job) and the second is setup around a particular aspect (victim of X). In the first group, you're often better assuming "default open" (that everyone in the group is a non-narcissist) - in the second group you may need defenders to protect the members (or somehow combine the two types).

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

stoicism is useful to properly function in your life. For example, I was homeless as a teenager. Should I have just laid down and shown my belly to the world, or stand up on my own two feet and move forward with my life? It sucks, but at some point people have to be made of sterner stuff or they'll never accomplish anything. That doesn't mean the bad things that happen are ok, or that they shouldn't deal with them, but if you roll over and show your belly every time something bad happens to you then you're depending on other people for your success.