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People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when t

People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. If we want to lower drunk driving incidence rates we need people walking to the bar or taking public transit. It requires us to fix our outdated and asinine transit culture. All of the technical solutions in the world can’t solve this problem because they’re solving for the wrong thing (safer cars) when we should be solving for reduction in driving.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
>People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. List of choices: 1. Not drink alcohol 2. Drink less alcohol, and switch to water at least 1 hour before driving. 3. Pay for a driver 4. Live where you can walk to an establishment that serves alcohol 5. Rent a hotel room nearby And so on and so forth. Drunk driving is certainly a choice, one made because the perceived or true cost of drunk driving is less than the cost of not driving drunk.
- piaste 4y ago
  6. Sleep in your car I think it's important to add this one because it's free and doesn't even require previous planning, so it's very hard to argue that you couldn't do it instead of driving drunk. (Although keeping a blanket in your trunk makes it a much better experience.)
  - tacticalturtle 4y ago
    You definitely will run into legal issues depending on the state. Some states like California you can only get a DUI if there’s evidence you moved your car, but in other states it’s a lot less clear - and you can be charged with any appearance of intent to drive, like sleeping in the driver’s seat. Not to mention the possibility of getting a trespassing charge in a private lot overnight.
  - cdash 4y ago
    Which just results in you getting a DUI even though you chose not to drive.
    - piaste 4y ago
      Well, even so, getting a DUI while sleeping is strictly better than getting a DUI after a car crash. Plus, I don't know how American cops work, but hopefully they're less likely to stop and breathalyze a dude sleeping in a parking lot than a guy on the road at 4 AM. Also, now that I think about it, American cars are huge, if you put the seat all the way back is your body you going to be even visible from the road?
      - ericmay 4y ago
        > body you going to be even visible from the road? No but your car will be, which will probably be investigated. If you are on the side of the road you'll definitely be investigated and for sure get a DUI because they'll say you drove there and parked. (Also definitely a no-go on highways/freeways). If you are in a parking lot cops will usually scope out a car, especially if you are parked away from other cars and then they'll wake up and tell you to move. Then you'll say "I'm drunk I can't drive" and then that's where all of the problems start. If you park near other cars (perhaps late night workers) they'll probably call the cops or call a towing company because you aren't allowed to park there and sleep overnight (another reason all these gigantic stupid surface parking lots are so useless). There's just way too many problems with this strategy.
        piaste 4y ago
        Stopping on the side of the road should get you a DUI, for the reason you listed. I didn't suggest that - although I guess stopping too late is still better than staying on the road! I've slept in my car in night clubs' parking lots several times and have never been bothered, either by the owners or by the police. I've also had friends follow my recommendation (well, more like pleading/pushing, since they were insisting 'noo I'm fine to drive') without trouble. Likely a difference between laws/customs in different countries.
  - viridian 4y ago
    From an individual's perspective, this is strictly worse than driving drunk. Not only can you not sleep in your car legally, you also can be charged with drunk driving while sleeping in your car unless you go out of your way to dispossess the keys. You also certainly can't sleep in your car with the engine running, which is pretty important in the winter time. There are better alternatives than drunk driving, but sleeping in your car isnt one of them.
- ericmay 4y ago
  1. Don't drink alcohol Well yea but we're talking about people who do drink alcohol 2. Drink less alcohol, and switch to water at least 1 hour before driving. I think this is a good solution, though of course different factors can and do easily disrupt this. 3./5. Pay for a driver/hotel Hmm, I've only had a few and I feel pretty good. And an Uber is $50 just one way and I still have to pick my car up in the morning (if it doesn't get towed). Vast majority of people (hence why we have DUI and drunk driving problems) will choose to risk it. 4. Live where you can walk to an establishment that serves alcohol This is tautological w.r.t the OP. If you could walk to an establishment that serves alcohol you'd live in an area where you could walk, which would mean you didn't really need a car. But that's not how we build in America which is what precipitated my comment. Related to #6 from the poster below - you can get a DUI for sleeping in your car while intoxicated, you can get woken up because you aren't allowed to sleep where you are parked, you can get towed, etc.
- u801e 4y ago
  6. Ride a bicycle If the drunk driver ends up in a collision with a motorist, then the damage to the other party would be minimal. The drunk person also still has personal transportation as well.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    Against the law and you can get a DUI for this too. It’s actually pretty dangerous. This includes other things too like scooters. E-Bikes can go pretty fast and cause serious injury too. If you were riding a bike drunk and drove into or were hit by a car you would probably be hurt pretty badly. If you ran into something else, or another person, same deal.
    - u801e 4y ago
      I was thinking more along the lines of a conventional bicycle, not an e-bike. The primary problem with DUI is the injury and property damage that others suffer as a result of a crash. This is because of the mass of the vehicle that the DUI uses. If they were on a bicycle, the danger would be minimized for others, and they would be the ones who are injured or killed in the crash. Based on the remark about individuals making a choice to operate a vehicle while under the influence, having them use a bicycle instead of a vehicle that's significantly heavier, the choice changes from do they drive under the influence and take the chance on injuring or killing people to do they drive under the influence and take a chance on injuring or killing themselves. Whether that change influences their choice remains to be seen.
      - ericmay 4y ago
        I added the e-bike as an extra factor not focusing on it there. You can still get a DUI. But the point of the bike comment largely doesn’t matter since people have to drive to the bar or wherever and there wouldn’t be a bike to get a DUI on. I’m actually not even sure that if given equal consideration a bike causes more drunken damage (although probably less lethal) but we won’t know because so few people ride bikes since they have to drive a car so they just get DUIs and kill people and themselves that way since we force that on people.
uptown 4y ago
"People drink and drive in America because they have no choice." They always could choose not to drink if they have no choice but to drive. How is that not a choice?
- ericmay 4y ago
  Because you have the wrong premise. It's not "do I drink or not", it's "I have drank, do I drive or not?"
  - uptown 4y ago
    So we seem to agree -- there is a choice.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      I think we disagree because you're saying you can choose to drink or not, but the choice we're talking about is now that you have drunk, do you drive or not? Because that's the actual choice that Americans face. If you're saying that "drive or not" is the choice, then sure we agree. But that's not really a choice because every incentive would be to drive and that's the structure we've built with car-only culture.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

>People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. List of choices: 1. Not drink alcohol 2. Drink less alcohol, and switch to water at least 1 hour before driving. 3. Pay for a driver 4. Live where you can walk to an establishment that serves alcohol 5. Rent a hotel room nearby And so on and so forth. Drunk driving is certainly a choice, one made because the perceived or true cost of drunk driving is less than the cost of not driving drunk.

piaste 4y ago
6. Sleep in your car I think it's important to add this one because it's free and doesn't even require previous planning, so it's very hard to argue that you couldn't do it instead of driving drunk. (Although keeping a blanket in your trunk makes it a much better experience.)
- tacticalturtle 4y ago
  You definitely will run into legal issues depending on the state. Some states like California you can only get a DUI if there’s evidence you moved your car, but in other states it’s a lot less clear - and you can be charged with any appearance of intent to drive, like sleeping in the driver’s seat. Not to mention the possibility of getting a trespassing charge in a private lot overnight.
- cdash 4y ago
  Which just results in you getting a DUI even though you chose not to drive.
  - piaste 4y ago
    Well, even so, getting a DUI while sleeping is strictly better than getting a DUI after a car crash. Plus, I don't know how American cops work, but hopefully they're less likely to stop and breathalyze a dude sleeping in a parking lot than a guy on the road at 4 AM. Also, now that I think about it, American cars are huge, if you put the seat all the way back is your body you going to be even visible from the road?
    - ericmay 4y ago
      > body you going to be even visible from the road? No but your car will be, which will probably be investigated. If you are on the side of the road you'll definitely be investigated and for sure get a DUI because they'll say you drove there and parked. (Also definitely a no-go on highways/freeways). If you are in a parking lot cops will usually scope out a car, especially if you are parked away from other cars and then they'll wake up and tell you to move. Then you'll say "I'm drunk I can't drive" and then that's where all of the problems start. If you park near other cars (perhaps late night workers) they'll probably call the cops or call a towing company because you aren't allowed to park there and sleep overnight (another reason all these gigantic stupid surface parking lots are so useless). There's just way too many problems with this strategy.
      - piaste 4y ago
        Stopping on the side of the road should get you a DUI, for the reason you listed. I didn't suggest that - although I guess stopping too late is still better than staying on the road! I've slept in my car in night clubs' parking lots several times and have never been bothered, either by the owners or by the police. I've also had friends follow my recommendation (well, more like pleading/pushing, since they were insisting 'noo I'm fine to drive') without trouble. Likely a difference between laws/customs in different countries.
- viridian 4y ago
  From an individual's perspective, this is strictly worse than driving drunk. Not only can you not sleep in your car legally, you also can be charged with drunk driving while sleeping in your car unless you go out of your way to dispossess the keys. You also certainly can't sleep in your car with the engine running, which is pretty important in the winter time. There are better alternatives than drunk driving, but sleeping in your car isnt one of them.
ericmay 4y ago
1. Don't drink alcohol Well yea but we're talking about people who do drink alcohol 2. Drink less alcohol, and switch to water at least 1 hour before driving. I think this is a good solution, though of course different factors can and do easily disrupt this. 3./5. Pay for a driver/hotel Hmm, I've only had a few and I feel pretty good. And an Uber is $50 just one way and I still have to pick my car up in the morning (if it doesn't get towed). Vast majority of people (hence why we have DUI and drunk driving problems) will choose to risk it. 4. Live where you can walk to an establishment that serves alcohol This is tautological w.r.t the OP. If you could walk to an establishment that serves alcohol you'd live in an area where you could walk, which would mean you didn't really need a car. But that's not how we build in America which is what precipitated my comment. Related to #6 from the poster below - you can get a DUI for sleeping in your car while intoxicated, you can get woken up because you aren't allowed to sleep where you are parked, you can get towed, etc.
u801e 4y ago
6. Ride a bicycle If the drunk driver ends up in a collision with a motorist, then the damage to the other party would be minimal. The drunk person also still has personal transportation as well.
- ericmay 4y ago
  Against the law and you can get a DUI for this too. It’s actually pretty dangerous. This includes other things too like scooters. E-Bikes can go pretty fast and cause serious injury too. If you were riding a bike drunk and drove into or were hit by a car you would probably be hurt pretty badly. If you ran into something else, or another person, same deal.
  - u801e 4y ago
    I was thinking more along the lines of a conventional bicycle, not an e-bike. The primary problem with DUI is the injury and property damage that others suffer as a result of a crash. This is because of the mass of the vehicle that the DUI uses. If they were on a bicycle, the danger would be minimized for others, and they would be the ones who are injured or killed in the crash. Based on the remark about individuals making a choice to operate a vehicle while under the influence, having them use a bicycle instead of a vehicle that's significantly heavier, the choice changes from do they drive under the influence and take the chance on injuring or killing people to do they drive under the influence and take a chance on injuring or killing themselves. Whether that change influences their choice remains to be seen.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      I added the e-bike as an extra factor not focusing on it there. You can still get a DUI. But the point of the bike comment largely doesn’t matter since people have to drive to the bar or wherever and there wouldn’t be a bike to get a DUI on. I’m actually not even sure that if given equal consideration a bike causes more drunken damage (although probably less lethal) but we won’t know because so few people ride bikes since they have to drive a car so they just get DUIs and kill people and themselves that way since we force that on people.

uptown 4y ago

"People drink and drive in America because they have no choice." They always could choose not to drink if they have no choice but to drive. How is that not a choice?

ericmay 4y ago
Because you have the wrong premise. It's not "do I drink or not", it's "I have drank, do I drive or not?"
- uptown 4y ago
  So we seem to agree -- there is a choice.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    I think we disagree because you're saying you can choose to drink or not, but the choice we're talking about is now that you have drunk, do you drive or not? Because that's the actual choice that Americans face. If you're saying that "drive or not" is the choice, then sure we agree. But that's not really a choice because every incentive would be to drive and that's the structure we've built with car-only culture.