3 ms·

There definitely can be instrument-specific differences though, even under equal temperment. For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different t

There definitely can be instrument-specific differences though, even under equal temperment. For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys; and on stringed instruments, some keys lend themselves to voicings containg more open strings, which AFAIK leads to a brighter/fuller sound (though I don't play stringed instruments, so don't quote me on that). There's also the practical matter that some things are easier or harder to play in some keys. And of course, playing a song in a higher or lower key means you’re playing it higher or lower. A couple semitones can make a subtle difference in the character of a piece; transposing half an octave can be drastic. This combines with instrument-specific differences too, as most instruments just sound different in different octave ranges. I once had to play a piece written that was written originally in A major for a Rhodes electric piano, but I had to transpose to D major to accommodate a vocalist. This was incredibly awkward; transposing downwards sounded way too muddy, but transposing upwards sounded annoyingly chimey.

weinzierl 4y ago
> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. Apart from that I cannot think of a reason why they should be different from the white keys.
- NobodyNada 4y ago
  Okay, full disclosure: I’m not entirely sure what the physical reason is, and I don’t have a source beyond just my own experience. However, I can definitely tell a difference, and it’s not subtle at all. If you play a note on the piano for me while my eyes are closed I can reliably tell whether it’s a black key or a white key. If I’m playing on a (high-quality sampled) synth piano that’s accidentally set to transpose -1 or +1 semitones I notice right away that it sounds like a black key where I played a white key or vice versa. Something about the black keys seems to sound a bit harsher/sharper/tangier to my ears; maybe a slightly sharper attack and/or slightly brighter harmonics in the upper-mid range. I suppose it’s possible that I’ve just learned to distinguish the pitches — I don’t have perfect pitch, but I’ve been playing piano for quite literally longer than I remember, so maybe my brain just internalized the C major scale, or something. But I’m sure I can hear a difference :)
  - weinzierl 4y ago
    Maybe you have instrument specific perfect pitch without being aware of it? Which keyboard/samples do you use where the difference is not subtle? I'd like to do the black key vs. white key test without looking. Maybe there is something to it I'd never noticed.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    Here's a test you could do: take a recording of piano and play it back at 1.06x. Do the black keys start sounding like white keys? This distinguishes between something about the way a piano is constructed/played vs whether you have learned something about specific pitches.
  - Sesse__ 4y ago
    It probably relates to the tuning you're used to. Piano strings do not have perfectly linear overtones, and thus piano tuning is never 100% equitemperal (I've tried; it sounds quite off). So the tuner has to make concessions across the scale, and most likely, there are more of them in the black keys since they are typically used less and you'd typically start with the pure intervals from A anyway. Of course, since you hear this effect even when played one by one, this assumes you are unconciously comparing them to some reference pitch. (I'm not aware of anything in manifacturing of piano strings that would somehow make black strings be produced different, so unless I'm missing something, it would have to either be in terms of key mechanics, hammer wear, or tuning.)
  - colanderman 4y ago
    I've noticed this too, on the upright piano I grew up with. There's a definite "thunkiness" to the sound of black keys. I've only played digital pianos since, and haven't noticed it, which is not surprising given that most digital pianos use the same sample for at least 2-3 adjacent pitches. I also do not know the reason, but I suspect it might have to do with body resonances/geometry.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kruuuder 4y ago
I agree to everything you have written, except > the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys I never noticed that and it doesn't seem plausible to me. The mechanics of black and white keys are identical, no?
- jvandonsel 4y ago
  The do have a shorter lever arm.

weinzierl 4y ago

> "For example, the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys" Can you elaborate on that? One thing that I noticed is that sometimes it can be hard to make the black keys sound the same as the white keys just because of their different geometry. They are shorter and therefore the lever length is shorter. You have to actively work to get timing and intensity right but you learn that early. Apart from that I cannot think of a reason why they should be different from the white keys.

NobodyNada 4y ago
Okay, full disclosure: I’m not entirely sure what the physical reason is, and I don’t have a source beyond just my own experience. However, I can definitely tell a difference, and it’s not subtle at all. If you play a note on the piano for me while my eyes are closed I can reliably tell whether it’s a black key or a white key. If I’m playing on a (high-quality sampled) synth piano that’s accidentally set to transpose -1 or +1 semitones I notice right away that it sounds like a black key where I played a white key or vice versa. Something about the black keys seems to sound a bit harsher/sharper/tangier to my ears; maybe a slightly sharper attack and/or slightly brighter harmonics in the upper-mid range. I suppose it’s possible that I’ve just learned to distinguish the pitches — I don’t have perfect pitch, but I’ve been playing piano for quite literally longer than I remember, so maybe my brain just internalized the C major scale, or something. But I’m sure I can hear a difference :)
- weinzierl 4y ago
  Maybe you have instrument specific perfect pitch without being aware of it? Which keyboard/samples do you use where the difference is not subtle? I'd like to do the black key vs. white key test without looking. Maybe there is something to it I'd never noticed.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Here's a test you could do: take a recording of piano and play it back at 1.06x. Do the black keys start sounding like white keys? This distinguishes between something about the way a piano is constructed/played vs whether you have learned something about specific pitches.
- Sesse__ 4y ago
  It probably relates to the tuning you're used to. Piano strings do not have perfectly linear overtones, and thus piano tuning is never 100% equitemperal (I've tried; it sounds quite off). So the tuner has to make concessions across the scale, and most likely, there are more of them in the black keys since they are typically used less and you'd typically start with the pure intervals from A anyway. Of course, since you hear this effect even when played one by one, this assumes you are unconciously comparing them to some reference pitch. (I'm not aware of anything in manifacturing of piano strings that would somehow make black strings be produced different, so unless I'm missing something, it would have to either be in terms of key mechanics, hammer wear, or tuning.)
- colanderman 4y ago
  I've noticed this too, on the upright piano I grew up with. There's a definite "thunkiness" to the sound of black keys. I've only played digital pianos since, and haven't noticed it, which is not surprising given that most digital pianos use the same sample for at least 2-3 adjacent pitches. I also do not know the reason, but I suspect it might have to do with body resonances/geometry.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kruuuder 4y ago

I agree to everything you have written, except > the black keys on a piano sound distinctly different than the white keys I never noticed that and it doesn't seem plausible to me. The mechanics of black and white keys are identical, no?

jvandonsel 4y ago
The do have a shorter lever arm.