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The premise of the DFH is just so bizzare. Essentially godlike aliens go around killing other aliens for hell of it. It'S fOr SeLf ProTeCtIoN! Please. If you're

The premise of the DFH is just so bizzare. Essentially godlike aliens go around killing other aliens for hell of it. It'S fOr SeLf ProTeCtIoN! Please. If you're a godlike alien, you don't actually have to care about anyone else. Hell, not only do you actually have to deal with intergalactic distances, we're talking about a plan that requires at this point quadrillions of individuals to be dedicated to multiple 100,000 year plans of preêmptive genocide against literally unknown civilizations. I'm sorry. But I'm not supposed to suspend disbelief for serious discussions. The older I get, the more I find these debates as tedious as medieval demonologists wondering about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and who is the fifth viscount of the third circle of Hell, and just what exactly is his bailiwick.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
> Essentially godlike aliens go around killing other aliens for hell of it. It'S fOr SeLf ProTeCtIoN! Please. Isn't the point the point that they aren't godlike? They're glass cannons, capable of creating weapons with incredible power, but incapable of defending themselves against that same class of weapon.
nine_k 4y ago
An easy illustration. Godlike aliens -> humans. Other civs -> wasps, mosquitos, cockroaches. Not a real existential threat, but enough of a nuisance. Wasps, even though they live in a complex culture from their point of view, have no chance to understand human culture. Not wanting to be accidentally stung sort of has a chance to be understood by both sides, very-very approximately.
- dmichulke 4y ago
  0. Wasps are everywhere (on the planet) and they can't destroy you. 1. Wasp-Aliens are everywhere in the universe. 2. Therefore they know how to travel with some speed v. 3. Therefore they know how to accelerate objects to speed v. 4. They can launch said objects towards your planet. 5. Therefore they can destroy you, so assumption 0 doesn't hold.
lph 4y ago
Maybe the disconnect is the word "godlike". A truly godlike power wouldn't care, because they're beyond threat. But imagine something more like the cold war: Powers capable of mutual destruction, but not godlike. In the aftermath of World War II, John von Neumann advocated a preemptive nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union before they could develop their own nuclear weapons. It's monstrous, but it's the same cold logic that the DFH proposes: Destroy others before they have a possibility of destroying you.
- DaedPsyker 4y ago
  I think that's a useful analogy but I would say that it also implies limited DFT. Von Neumann's plan was based on an incredibly short time scale. It wasn't long before the Soviet Union would develop its own weapons. The power asymmetry was only briefly held. The thing is at a universal scale that would imply that the only threats we would honestly face are ones in close power level, and we can barely leave the earth at the minute. Another species with more advancement than us would be n-years more advanced than us even after we reach the level of what they were at on first encountering them (unless they decide to share technology which would be the opposite of DFT). Technological stagnation could cause a catch-up but then the theory has to assume technological stagnation is incredibly common for enough length of time to allow upstarts to catch up. Now history has shown that more powerful nation's have conquered others. The 19th century is choked full with examples. That primarily was driven by competition by world powers seeking ever more resources for that competition. The universe is abundant in resources however, we have a lot to pick from once we are space faring species.
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    >Now history has shown that more powerful nation's have conquered others. The 19th century is choked full with examples. That primarily was driven by competition by world powers seeking ever more resources for that competition. The universe is abundant in resources however, we have a lot to pick from once we are space faring species. We can model this using just exponential growth and fixed speeds. If civilizations with interstellar capability existed prior to now, we'd see them. The galaxy would be literally teaming with them. That's the Fermi paradox. That's what the Grabby Aliens paper explored. They don't exist.
er4hn 4y ago
The alien's desire to destroy other civilizations is what drives the plot forward. The message that I took away from the novel was not what aliens care about, but that blind reliance on technology will not solve all problems. Likewise debating angels dancing on the head of a pin, as if it were literal, wasn't the point. Depending on what sources you check it was either a made up story to mock scholars wasting time or a practice topic for debating.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  Demonology is a “study” conducted by true believers for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Someone sat down in the 13th century, and earnestly questioned whether Forneus was a marquis or earl, and whether 30 legions of demons under his command was too many. (It was. He has only 29.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forneus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forneus
dirtyid 4y ago
>plan that requires at this point quadrillions of individuals to be dedicated to multiple 100,000 year plans I viewed it as more like developed nations funding WHO to erdicate outbreaks in developing back waters. Dedicating fraction of a civilization's resources to genocide viruses that no one wants to think about. Also at some point it's just another jobs program for a sufficiently large civilizational bureaucracy finding things to do and threats to mitigate for KPIs on their powerpoints.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  You still haven't gotten around the 100,000 year issue. It's the energy expenditure and timescales that are the problem. Even Star Trek's Q, doesn't care want to wait 100,000 years, and he's immortal, all powerful, and exists outside of space and time.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    >energy expenditure and timescales that are the problem Feels like that's anthropomorphizing human motivations (which Q at at some level was written to embody). IMO even for humans, not really an issue, wealthy countries spends fraction of discretionary budget to entertain long term projects. Last month Switzerland just commited 20B/3% of GDP on nuclear waste storage. Frankly, it could just be passing hobby of the nephew of some K1-2 civ energy sheikh sending out off the shelf grey goo genocide drones from his local cosmic mart for clout. Space twitch chat asked him to do it, and they do because it's a nonchalant activity, they're not thinking 1 minutes into the future let alone 100,000 years. They're not spending entire cycles of local sol energy to shoot expensive relativistic kill vehicles. They're spending pocket credits for a laugh, and 100,000 years later trillions of organisms end up dying. I think part of charm is recognizing the potential for lonewolf /small group of actors to be more dangerous than ever as societies move up tech tree.
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      I’ve already done the math about how hard it is to chuck a relativistic rock. Assuming solar output, you could arguably maybe do it as a Kardashev I, but it’s more a Kadashev II thing. It gets harder if you find yourself born around a common red dwarf. If Zaphod Beeblebrox is chucking asteroids for lolz, while he waits for Slartibartfast to finish building a new pleasure planet (with space blackjack, and three boobed Martian hookers from Total Recall no doubt), we’re dealing with residents of Mount Olympus, with Zaphod playing the role of Zeus. Come to think of it. That would certainly make the ancient alien conspiracies more entertaining —- and more terrifying.
linkdink 4y ago
The DFH doesn't claim that the aliens would be "god-like" per your definition. They just have a first-strike capability and motive to use it. Could be a low risk-tolerance for coexisting with other aliens. Or something else. Either way, you don't have to suspend disbelief because you're arguing with a strawman you created.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  I don't think you actually considered the energies and timespans required (let alone the political will) to yeet a rock at an unseen planet on the other side of the galaxy. At 1% the speed of light, it will take 10 million years just see if you hit anything on the other side of Milky Way. If you have to wait 10 million years, why do you even care? You'll be extinct, as will your target. Even if you do decide chuck a dinosaur killing sized boulder (which, really is probably the smallest you'd want to use), you'd have expend 4.5 * 10^23 joules just to accelerate it. That's equivalent of all the solar radiation that hits the Earth over five days. That's a huge lift for even a supposed Kardashev I civilization. It's something more practical for a Kardashev II civilization. Although to be fair, the practical threshold is probably somewhere between I and II. And let's be clear here. If you're dismantling planets to build mirrors, you're Galacticus. Anyway, how would the decision to throw a rock across the galaxy even work? A civilization obtains Kardashev II, and immediately starts looking for Kardashev Is or earlier, and starts tossing rocks at them, just in case they don't go extinct in 10 million years, and somehow don't also become a Kardashev II in the next 10 million years, because as soon as they do, they're going to hit you with a rock in 20 million years? To put that in perspective, 20 million years ago was when apes and monkeys split on the evolutionary tree. 10 million years ago was when humans and apes split. At this point, you might as well toss a rock at every planet that has a biosignature, because 10 million years is a long time. Better keep tossing rocks in that direction, in case something else evolves. Maybe you better toss a planet at it, just be sure. That's only 2.19 * 10^37 joules, or 200 years of the sun's output. Shit. You better be Kardashev III. Wait! We know there aren't any Kardashev IIIs in the observable universe! Double shit! If this casually genocidal Kardashev II civilization exists on the far side of the Milky Way, and wanted kill humanity, they'd be looking at homo erectus. They'd have wait another 100,000 years just to get a radio signal, and then what? Throw the rock immediately, and hope that in the ensuing 10 million years humanity hasn't learned how to redirect a relativistic rock? Or maybe they just threw the rock without even waiting for the radio signal, and it's on its way right now! Maybe the asteroid that hit 65 million years ago was a warning shot! Maybe they were trying to kill off a potential Silurian civilization before it even got really started, and ironically spawned us! This strains credulity.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

> Essentially godlike aliens go around killing other aliens for hell of it. It'S fOr SeLf ProTeCtIoN! Please. Isn't the point the point that they aren't godlike? They're glass cannons, capable of creating weapons with incredible power, but incapable of defending themselves against that same class of weapon.

nine_k 4y ago

An easy illustration. Godlike aliens -> humans. Other civs -> wasps, mosquitos, cockroaches. Not a real existential threat, but enough of a nuisance. Wasps, even though they live in a complex culture from their point of view, have no chance to understand human culture. Not wanting to be accidentally stung sort of has a chance to be understood by both sides, very-very approximately.

dmichulke 4y ago
0. Wasps are everywhere (on the planet) and they can't destroy you. 1. Wasp-Aliens are everywhere in the universe. 2. Therefore they know how to travel with some speed v. 3. Therefore they know how to accelerate objects to speed v. 4. They can launch said objects towards your planet. 5. Therefore they can destroy you, so assumption 0 doesn't hold.

lph 4y ago

Maybe the disconnect is the word "godlike". A truly godlike power wouldn't care, because they're beyond threat. But imagine something more like the cold war: Powers capable of mutual destruction, but not godlike. In the aftermath of World War II, John von Neumann advocated a preemptive nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union before they could develop their own nuclear weapons. It's monstrous, but it's the same cold logic that the DFH proposes: Destroy others before they have a possibility of destroying you.

DaedPsyker 4y ago
I think that's a useful analogy but I would say that it also implies limited DFT. Von Neumann's plan was based on an incredibly short time scale. It wasn't long before the Soviet Union would develop its own weapons. The power asymmetry was only briefly held. The thing is at a universal scale that would imply that the only threats we would honestly face are ones in close power level, and we can barely leave the earth at the minute. Another species with more advancement than us would be n-years more advanced than us even after we reach the level of what they were at on first encountering them (unless they decide to share technology which would be the opposite of DFT). Technological stagnation could cause a catch-up but then the theory has to assume technological stagnation is incredibly common for enough length of time to allow upstarts to catch up. Now history has shown that more powerful nation's have conquered others. The 19th century is choked full with examples. That primarily was driven by competition by world powers seeking ever more resources for that competition. The universe is abundant in resources however, we have a lot to pick from once we are space faring species.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  >Now history has shown that more powerful nation's have conquered others. The 19th century is choked full with examples. That primarily was driven by competition by world powers seeking ever more resources for that competition. The universe is abundant in resources however, we have a lot to pick from once we are space faring species. We can model this using just exponential growth and fixed speeds. If civilizations with interstellar capability existed prior to now, we'd see them. The galaxy would be literally teaming with them. That's the Fermi paradox. That's what the Grabby Aliens paper explored. They don't exist.

er4hn 4y ago

The alien's desire to destroy other civilizations is what drives the plot forward. The message that I took away from the novel was not what aliens care about, but that blind reliance on technology will not solve all problems. Likewise debating angels dancing on the head of a pin, as if it were literal, wasn't the point. Depending on what sources you check it was either a made up story to mock scholars wasting time or a practice topic for debating.

jonathankoren 4y ago
Demonology is a “study” conducted by true believers for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Someone sat down in the 13th century, and earnestly questioned whether Forneus was a marquis or earl, and whether 30 legions of demons under his command was too many. (It was. He has only 29.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forneus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forneus

dirtyid 4y ago

>plan that requires at this point quadrillions of individuals to be dedicated to multiple 100,000 year plans I viewed it as more like developed nations funding WHO to erdicate outbreaks in developing back waters. Dedicating fraction of a civilization's resources to genocide viruses that no one wants to think about. Also at some point it's just another jobs program for a sufficiently large civilizational bureaucracy finding things to do and threats to mitigate for KPIs on their powerpoints.

jonathankoren 4y ago
You still haven't gotten around the 100,000 year issue. It's the energy expenditure and timescales that are the problem. Even Star Trek's Q, doesn't care want to wait 100,000 years, and he's immortal, all powerful, and exists outside of space and time.
- dirtyid 4y ago
  >energy expenditure and timescales that are the problem Feels like that's anthropomorphizing human motivations (which Q at at some level was written to embody). IMO even for humans, not really an issue, wealthy countries spends fraction of discretionary budget to entertain long term projects. Last month Switzerland just commited 20B/3% of GDP on nuclear waste storage. Frankly, it could just be passing hobby of the nephew of some K1-2 civ energy sheikh sending out off the shelf grey goo genocide drones from his local cosmic mart for clout. Space twitch chat asked him to do it, and they do because it's a nonchalant activity, they're not thinking 1 minutes into the future let alone 100,000 years. They're not spending entire cycles of local sol energy to shoot expensive relativistic kill vehicles. They're spending pocket credits for a laugh, and 100,000 years later trillions of organisms end up dying. I think part of charm is recognizing the potential for lonewolf /small group of actors to be more dangerous than ever as societies move up tech tree.
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    I’ve already done the math about how hard it is to chuck a relativistic rock. Assuming solar output, you could arguably maybe do it as a Kardashev I, but it’s more a Kadashev II thing. It gets harder if you find yourself born around a common red dwarf. If Zaphod Beeblebrox is chucking asteroids for lolz, while he waits for Slartibartfast to finish building a new pleasure planet (with space blackjack, and three boobed Martian hookers from Total Recall no doubt), we’re dealing with residents of Mount Olympus, with Zaphod playing the role of Zeus. Come to think of it. That would certainly make the ancient alien conspiracies more entertaining —- and more terrifying.

linkdink 4y ago

The DFH doesn't claim that the aliens would be "god-like" per your definition. They just have a first-strike capability and motive to use it. Could be a low risk-tolerance for coexisting with other aliens. Or something else. Either way, you don't have to suspend disbelief because you're arguing with a strawman you created.

jonathankoren 4y ago
I don't think you actually considered the energies and timespans required (let alone the political will) to yeet a rock at an unseen planet on the other side of the galaxy. At 1% the speed of light, it will take 10 million years just see if you hit anything on the other side of Milky Way. If you have to wait 10 million years, why do you even care? You'll be extinct, as will your target. Even if you do decide chuck a dinosaur killing sized boulder (which, really is probably the smallest you'd want to use), you'd have expend 4.5 * 10^23 joules just to accelerate it. That's equivalent of all the solar radiation that hits the Earth over five days. That's a huge lift for even a supposed Kardashev I civilization. It's something more practical for a Kardashev II civilization. Although to be fair, the practical threshold is probably somewhere between I and II. And let's be clear here. If you're dismantling planets to build mirrors, you're Galacticus. Anyway, how would the decision to throw a rock across the galaxy even work? A civilization obtains Kardashev II, and immediately starts looking for Kardashev Is or earlier, and starts tossing rocks at them, just in case they don't go extinct in 10 million years, and somehow don't also become a Kardashev II in the next 10 million years, because as soon as they do, they're going to hit you with a rock in 20 million years? To put that in perspective, 20 million years ago was when apes and monkeys split on the evolutionary tree. 10 million years ago was when humans and apes split. At this point, you might as well toss a rock at every planet that has a biosignature, because 10 million years is a long time. Better keep tossing rocks in that direction, in case something else evolves. Maybe you better toss a planet at it, just be sure. That's only 2.19 * 10^37 joules, or 200 years of the sun's output. Shit. You better be Kardashev III. Wait! We know there aren't any Kardashev IIIs in the observable universe! Double shit! If this casually genocidal Kardashev II civilization exists on the far side of the Milky Way, and wanted kill humanity, they'd be looking at homo erectus. They'd have wait another 100,000 years just to get a radio signal, and then what? Throw the rock immediately, and hope that in the ensuing 10 million years humanity hasn't learned how to redirect a relativistic rock? Or maybe they just threw the rock without even waiting for the radio signal, and it's on its way right now! Maybe the asteroid that hit 65 million years ago was a warning shot! Maybe they were trying to kill off a potential Silurian civilization before it even got really started, and ironically spawned us! This strains credulity.