4 ms·

It is unethical to agree to an employment contract, and then not keep your word.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause https://en.wikipedia.o

It is unethical to agree to an employment contract, and then not keep your word.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

dymk 4y ago
People put unenforceable clauses in contracts all the time. And I think you're confusing "unethical" with "unlawful".
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  Are "one job at a time" clauses unenforceable?
  - Maursault 4y ago
    No, unless you think being fired isn't enforcing anything.
- jldugger 4y ago
  I think you're the one confusing the two. Violating a unenforceable contract clause isn't unlawful, but is pretty much breaking a promise, which is definitely unethical.
  - muti 4y ago
    Is it ethical to include an unenforceable clause in a contract?
    - rgbrgb 4y ago
      Yes. Why wouldn’t it be?
      - muti 4y ago
        Consider a clause that is unenforceable because it contradicts some rights enshrined in law. If someone was misled into believing the clause is enforceable, their rights have been infringed on unfairly due to an imbalance of information
    - jldugger 4y ago
      Probably about as ethical as it is to agree to one with the intent of breaking such a clause.
- Maursault 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "unenforceable." In all cases, the job is lost, and that is enforcement enough. It isn't a criminal issue, and I seriously doubt anyone has ever been arrested, but nothing can stop a lawsuit from being filed. Whether it is successful or not isn't the issue. Even if you win a lawsuit, you can still lose your savings and your home. So be careful with your signature, read the fine print, and be resigned to keep your word, and have no worries. Screw around, and you'll at the very least be terminated without a reference for however long you worked, leaving ugly conspicuous gaps in your resume. 9 times out of 10, an employer will hire the less competent but more honest individual. Once you lose your credibility, it's gone.
mickdeek86 4y ago
Many people don't have NCAs (I don't). Also they are often specifically prohibiting working for a competitor company, so working in a different industry wouldn't be a violation
- Maursault 4y ago
  I've worked 35 years in technology under contract and direct hire in CA, TX, NY, PA, DC, MD & NC, and I have never not seen an NDA, which is par for the course in IT (which is not software development), nor have I ever known an employer that tolerated moonlighting. I knew a wizkid Cisco guy, 23yo at the time and already competent with impressive NOC, switch and UNIX sysadmin skills making bank in Austin, took a second full time job for a comparable salary, neither remote. He worked 80-100hrs every week, day and evening shifts, and didn't get caught for 2 years. But when he was caught, he was fired from both locations and lost their references. I doubt it held him back much, and I am sure he has recovered by now, but had to explain 3 years missing from his resume at every next job interview.
  - mickdeek86 4y ago
    Well I'm in industrial controls. The only NCA I've ever signed was for a one-year a contract with JPMC, which was fully a software role. I've probably always had an NDA, and controls jobs rarely leave enough spare time to even have much of a life, let alone a whole other job.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      I came into this game for the action, the excitement. Go anywhere. Travel light. Get in. Get out. Wherever there's trouble, a man alone. Now they've got the whole country sectioned-off. You can't move without a form. I'm the last of a breed.[0]
      - mickdeek86 4y ago
        Like the Mohicans, there's still quite a few of us.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Non-competes are unenforceable in many places, such clauses can be nullified. I'd argue that it's unethical to put unenforceable terms into contracts in order to scare the signee into not doing something they might want to do, something that could better their family's lives, and something that's completely legal.
- Maursault 4y ago
  > Non-competes are unenforceable in many places, such clauses can be nullified. Many places being only California, North Dakota, the District of Columbia, and Oklahoma, and even there they're not entirely unenforceable. You'll still get fired, but you probably won't get sued. Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Washington have banned non-compete agreements only for low-wage workers. There earning more than $34K/yr and in the rest of the US, a contract is a contract, and violators will not only get fired, they're open to lawsuit for breach of contract, though I expect litigating an employee for breach of contract would be exceptional, say if the employee pilfered lucrative clients. > I'd argue that it's unethical to put unenforceable terms into contracts in order to scare the signee into not doing something they might want to do, something that could better their family's lives, and something that's completely legal. This is quite the straw man as noncompete contracts are always enforceable through termination with cause, and they are ubiquitous in standard boilerplate employment contracts.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Just FYI, I had changed 'illegal' to 'unenforceable' probably while you were writing this comment.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      Just FYI, I quoted "unenforceable." Getting fired is the enforcement. Nothing will stop you from hiring an attorney and suing for wrongful termination, but attorneys are expensive even when there still is a salary, and the suit will be dismissed once the former employer produces the contract and asks if it is your signature on it. Companies have deep pockets. Unless there there is personal injury involved, or significant unpaid wages, it's not really viable for an individual with an individual's resources to win in court against a company or corporation with comparatively endless reassures. Even when one is 100% in the right, usually the prudent option is to walk away and move on.

It is unethical to agree to an employment contract, and then not keep your word.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

dymk 4y ago

People put unenforceable clauses in contracts all the time. And I think you're confusing "unethical" with "unlawful".

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
Are "one job at a time" clauses unenforceable?
- Maursault 4y ago
  No, unless you think being fired isn't enforcing anything.
jldugger 4y ago
I think you're the one confusing the two. Violating a unenforceable contract clause isn't unlawful, but is pretty much breaking a promise, which is definitely unethical.
- muti 4y ago
  Is it ethical to include an unenforceable clause in a contract?
  - rgbrgb 4y ago
    Yes. Why wouldn’t it be?
    - muti 4y ago
      Consider a clause that is unenforceable because it contradicts some rights enshrined in law. If someone was misled into believing the clause is enforceable, their rights have been infringed on unfairly due to an imbalance of information
  - jldugger 4y ago
    Probably about as ethical as it is to agree to one with the intent of breaking such a clause.
Maursault 4y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "unenforceable." In all cases, the job is lost, and that is enforcement enough. It isn't a criminal issue, and I seriously doubt anyone has ever been arrested, but nothing can stop a lawsuit from being filed. Whether it is successful or not isn't the issue. Even if you win a lawsuit, you can still lose your savings and your home. So be careful with your signature, read the fine print, and be resigned to keep your word, and have no worries. Screw around, and you'll at the very least be terminated without a reference for however long you worked, leaving ugly conspicuous gaps in your resume. 9 times out of 10, an employer will hire the less competent but more honest individual. Once you lose your credibility, it's gone.

mickdeek86 4y ago

Many people don't have NCAs (I don't). Also they are often specifically prohibiting working for a competitor company, so working in a different industry wouldn't be a violation

Maursault 4y ago
I've worked 35 years in technology under contract and direct hire in CA, TX, NY, PA, DC, MD & NC, and I have never not seen an NDA, which is par for the course in IT (which is not software development), nor have I ever known an employer that tolerated moonlighting. I knew a wizkid Cisco guy, 23yo at the time and already competent with impressive NOC, switch and UNIX sysadmin skills making bank in Austin, took a second full time job for a comparable salary, neither remote. He worked 80-100hrs every week, day and evening shifts, and didn't get caught for 2 years. But when he was caught, he was fired from both locations and lost their references. I doubt it held him back much, and I am sure he has recovered by now, but had to explain 3 years missing from his resume at every next job interview.
- mickdeek86 4y ago
  Well I'm in industrial controls. The only NCA I've ever signed was for a one-year a contract with JPMC, which was fully a software role. I've probably always had an NDA, and controls jobs rarely leave enough spare time to even have much of a life, let alone a whole other job.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    I came into this game for the action, the excitement. Go anywhere. Travel light. Get in. Get out. Wherever there's trouble, a man alone. Now they've got the whole country sectioned-off. You can't move without a form. I'm the last of a breed.[0]
    - mickdeek86 4y ago
      Like the Mohicans, there's still quite a few of us.

heavyset_go 4y ago

Non-competes are unenforceable in many places, such clauses can be nullified. I'd argue that it's unethical to put unenforceable terms into contracts in order to scare the signee into not doing something they might want to do, something that could better their family's lives, and something that's completely legal.

Maursault 4y ago
> Non-competes are unenforceable in many places, such clauses can be nullified. Many places being only California, North Dakota, the District of Columbia, and Oklahoma, and even there they're not entirely unenforceable. You'll still get fired, but you probably won't get sued. Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Washington have banned non-compete agreements only for low-wage workers. There earning more than $34K/yr and in the rest of the US, a contract is a contract, and violators will not only get fired, they're open to lawsuit for breach of contract, though I expect litigating an employee for breach of contract would be exceptional, say if the employee pilfered lucrative clients. > I'd argue that it's unethical to put unenforceable terms into contracts in order to scare the signee into not doing something they might want to do, something that could better their family's lives, and something that's completely legal. This is quite the straw man as noncompete contracts are always enforceable through termination with cause, and they are ubiquitous in standard boilerplate employment contracts.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Just FYI, I had changed 'illegal' to 'unenforceable' probably while you were writing this comment.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    Just FYI, I quoted "unenforceable." Getting fired is the enforcement. Nothing will stop you from hiring an attorney and suing for wrongful termination, but attorneys are expensive even when there still is a salary, and the suit will be dismissed once the former employer produces the contract and asks if it is your signature on it. Companies have deep pockets. Unless there there is personal injury involved, or significant unpaid wages, it's not really viable for an individual with an individual's resources to win in court against a company or corporation with comparatively endless reassures. Even when one is 100% in the right, usually the prudent option is to walk away and move on.