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> The physical realm as you call it is the entire reality, it's the only thing you can interact with in an empirical manner. An opinion, stated in (and perhaps

> The physical realm as you call it is the entire reality, it's the only thing you can interact with in an empirical manner. An opinion, stated in (and perhaps perceived as) a fact. And as the saying goes: you may not be interested in metaphysics, but metaphysics may be interested in you (the poor folks in Ukraine are getting a lesson in this as we speak). > You don't need anything else to create consciousness, it's 100% physics, and would work quite differently if it wouldn't be. ...the instance of human consciousness confidently exclaimed. > It's actually thermodynamics. Consciousness "is" thermodynamics? (And also 100% physics?) It isn't only that physics is known to be involved (necessary), but it is known[1] to be sufficient[2]? > As it turns out there is a selection for information-processing structures due to the connection between energy efficiency and prediction. Any system interacting with it's environment has a state that's changed by the interaction, and some of that state happens to be predictive of the future. Turns out how much of that state is predictive is exactly how energy efficient the system is. It's called the thermodynamics of prediction. And you're saying that it is scientific consensus that this is the solution to The Hard Problem of Consciousness[3]? > But wait, there is more. Thermodynamics actually favors the creation of a hierarchy of dissipating structures. Lightning and fire and both such structures, and also stars... If the topic of discussion was stars, this would be more convincing. > Information itself is physical, it's like heat, in fact it has the same properties, it requires a medium to propagate and so on, and you can use the same statistical mechanics to describe it. It can be stored physically, but whether this is the only way in which it manifests is another matter. > Physics now can be used to understand information-processing too. In 2022, can physics perfectly reverse engineer and emulate the human mind? > Metaphysics is only interesting if you are a philosopher... Why do people complain about metaphyscal phenomena then, constantly? COVID, Iraq, religion, wealth inequality, Trump supporters, etc etc etc - the whining never ends. >...and you are trying to think about things we don't understand yet. It may seem like you have knowledge of what myself and others have knowledge of, but science suggests that this is an illusory side effect of consciousness[4], and on that particular matter I tend to agree with science. > But it's not an excuse for dismissing reality... Agreed - that responsibility tends to fall to culture, The Science, and consciousness, and I strongly recommend against it. > ...which is much more interesting than any metaphysical nonsense. Said the instance of consciousness, describing the flawed model of something within his mind, thinking he is talking about the thing itself[5]. > Yes, physics can create minds... It certainly plays a role, but is it sufficient? [1][2] > ...but that doesn't mean that minds became mundane, material things... Culture is what does that, imho. Culture, propaganda, non-democratic power structures, etc - lots of things. > ...it means that physics is astonishingly awesome and powerful. And, perhaps, misleading. So impressive that it blots out other subtleties that we are surrounded by. > It creates black holes, stars, planets, human brains and all thoughts and dreams we have in them. What's not to like? The harm that comes when people come to believe that it is the answer to all, due to growing up in a culture that abhors logic and epistemology, while simultaneously worshipping disciplines that derive their power from these skills. I suspect it is unlikely that you and I will see eye to eye on any of this, but I am ever curious and always enjoy such conversations. [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency [3] https://iep.utm.edu/hard-problem-of-conciousness/ https://iep.utm.edu/hard-problem-of-conciousness/ [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

Comevius 4y ago
I think we are over the hard problem of consciousness, and the problem was only hard because we are emotional about it and think that it should be more special than it's humble information-processing origin suggests. We are biased when it comes to consciousness because we are right in the middle of it, it compels us to take it seriously, in fact it lies to us for practical reasons. In a way the entire subjective experience of having a self that makes a decision is an illusion, every subjective experience is. We feel cold, we see images, but it's all an information-processing machine convincing us that we feel it, that we see them. What actually happens is different, and we are not privy to it, but we are starting to understand it. For example the self itself doesn't make decisions, it's a report from all over the brain integrated into a coherent story, which is fed back to the memory and the rest of the brain. Our memory too is not what it feels like, for example we can't simply recall things, to do that we have to create a new memory with a new coherent story that integrates some of the original memory, reinterpreted. But your brain doesn't tell you this, it just makes you believe that you remember things. You often remember them wrong though. Humans are very unreliable witnesses for this reason. We have an entire bouquet of cognitive biases and heuristics, we don't even notice them. Our brain have to use shortcuts, but it lies about them. Turns out we are quite predictable actually, and therefore exploitable by marketing, politics or religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Consciousness is a tower of practical lies hiding the machinery, which is basically an information-processing machine capable of manipulating information. All we are privy to is the manipulated information. Our brain is in control of the entire process, our subjective experiences feel real, because we are made to believe that they feel real. We have no choice in the matter. When you are seeing a red door you are processing information, you are not seeing a red door, the information is just manipulated that way. And of course if you are seeing a red door, there is a door in reality, since brains evolved to be practical. It wouldn't lie you about a door being there, though it may lie about the the size for practical reasons. Objects with saturated colors look larger for example. See color psychology. https://www.nickkolenda.com/color-psychology/ https://www.nickkolenda.com/color-psychology/ Physics is not only sufficient to create minds, it's why they work this way, otherwise I would imagine God could have done better.
- 4y ago

Comevius 4y ago

I think we are over the hard problem of consciousness, and the problem was only hard because we are emotional about it and think that it should be more special than it's humble information-processing origin suggests. We are biased when it comes to consciousness because we are right in the middle of it, it compels us to take it seriously, in fact it lies to us for practical reasons. In a way the entire subjective experience of having a self that makes a decision is an illusion, every subjective experience is. We feel cold, we see images, but it's all an information-processing machine convincing us that we feel it, that we see them. What actually happens is different, and we are not privy to it, but we are starting to understand it. For example the self itself doesn't make decisions, it's a report from all over the brain integrated into a coherent story, which is fed back to the memory and the rest of the brain. Our memory too is not what it feels like, for example we can't simply recall things, to do that we have to create a new memory with a new coherent story that integrates some of the original memory, reinterpreted. But your brain doesn't tell you this, it just makes you believe that you remember things. You often remember them wrong though. Humans are very unreliable witnesses for this reason. We have an entire bouquet of cognitive biases and heuristics, we don't even notice them. Our brain have to use shortcuts, but it lies about them. Turns out we are quite predictable actually, and therefore exploitable by marketing, politics or religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Consciousness is a tower of practical lies hiding the machinery, which is basically an information-processing machine capable of manipulating information. All we are privy to is the manipulated information. Our brain is in control of the entire process, our subjective experiences feel real, because we are made to believe that they feel real. We have no choice in the matter. When you are seeing a red door you are processing information, you are not seeing a red door, the information is just manipulated that way. And of course if you are seeing a red door, there is a door in reality, since brains evolved to be practical. It wouldn't lie you about a door being there, though it may lie about the the size for practical reasons. Objects with saturated colors look larger for example. See color psychology. https://www.nickkolenda.com/color-psychology/ https://www.nickkolenda.com/color-psychology/ Physics is not only sufficient to create minds, it's why they work this way, otherwise I would imagine God could have done better.

4y ago