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> Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Then you proceed to require exact wording in agreement :-) you're of course free to rationalize any way you want, but if it'

> Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Then you proceed to require exact wording in agreement :-) you're of course free to rationalize any way you want, but if it's so simple, why not bring it up with a manager? > Maybe pay better? Awesome. How much guarantees no issues? This much is fine? :-) https://mashable.com/article/google-waymo-bonuses https://mashable.com/article/google-waymo-bonuses > if the task was actually engaging (or the money was worth it), they would find a way to not "half-ass" it. Funny. Last time I had to deal with it, entire ten people team had zero issues with engagement. Only one guy had. All had comparable compensation. Care to explain this phenomenon? To make it even more funny his team brought up the issue first, as they got tired of this. Not every employer is shitty. Some of them being doesn't justify lying to all. > I know of exactly zero programmers who spend every hour of every shift engaged. Yup slack time is important. Every reasonable company knows that. You need to wind down sometimes. That's why you have table soccer, xboxes etc. You argue that, instead companies should assign second project to everyone, to help them relax? >If your colleagues working second jobs are unproductive, I can basically guarantee you they'd still be unproductive with just one job. Where can I exercise this guarantee? World is small - it's often easy to find common colleagues and find out about pre-remote performance of your teammates. It happened to me to be in such position and weirdly results were completely opposite from what you said.

yellowapple 4y ago
> Then you proceed to require exact wording in agreement :-) Ain't my fault that lawyers are Sith :) > you're of course free to rationalize any way you want, but if it's so simple, why not bring it up with a manager? Because it's quite frankly none of their business. Corporations, contrary to what they might believe, do not own their employees. If they are dissatisfied with their employees' output, they are already more than willing to terminate employment for any reason, and that's that. > Funny. Last time I had to deal with it, entire ten people team had zero issues with engagement. Only one guy had And for all you know those ten people could be working second jobs, too, as is their right. You would have no idea because you are explicitly only measuring the ones who can't hack it, and have no visibility into those who can. > Yup slack time is important. Every reasonable company knows that. You need to wind down sometimes. That's why you have table soccer, xboxes etc Sorry to burst your Silicon Valley bubble, but such companies are very much in the minority. > You argue that, instead companies should assign second project to everyone, to help them relax? No, I argue that companies should not expect to own their employees 168 hours a week while only paying them for 40 at best. I further argue that employers hire and fire by productivity alone, and therefore employees have every right to contribute based on productivity alone rather than some archaic notion of ass-in-seat timekeeping.
- dzikimarian 4y ago
  My Silicon Valley bubble is located in eastern Poland. :-) It's pretty much standard here. Feel free to move, life is cheaper and health care is free (albeit has other issues). I mostly agree with you, simply yet to meet someone able to pull two jobs, without visible issues. Most of our team works hybrid - some remote, some on-site. Kinda hard to go dark in second full time job for 2-4 days each week. I assume from the fully remote ones, we've some which tries this, but it is maybe 1%-3%.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > My Silicon Valley bubble is located in eastern Poland. :-) It's pretty much standard here. Maybe things have changed in the last couple years, but my impression from the various Polish colleagues with whom I've worked was the opposite. The pay was (and apparently still is) also typically considerably below what's normal elsewhere in the EU (let alone beyond, e.g. here in the US) - which suggests yet more reason why someone working two jobs might not be very engaged at the local one (if push comes to shove and you gotta pick one or the other, it's gonna be the better-paying one that gets prioritized). > simply yet to meet someone able to pull two jobs, without visible issues. I guess what I'm getting at is it's possible (probable, even) that you have met folks working multiple jobs without visible issues - but the lack of visible issues and their rather understandable lack of disclosure means you wouldn't have reason to know.
    - dzikimarian 4y ago
      > also typically considerably below what's normal elsewhere in the EU (let alone beyond, e.g. here in the US) Behind US - yes. However you don't get local US salary anyway, because then US Corp would hire in US. Why bother to recruit overseas? Behind UE - depends which part. Norway? Probably yes. Spain? Not so much. Anyway aparat from rare outliners, differences aren't that much, because then nobody would work locally. >if push comes to shove and you gotta pick one or the other, it's gonna be the better-paying one that gets prioritized Exactly my point for this whole discussion(except sometimes it is not about money, but just who screams more). That's the moment, where you commit a fraud. > I guess what I'm getting at is it's possible (probable, even) that you have met folks working multiple jobs without visible issues Well, what's certain - I know people, who in private conversation (outside of my work context), admitted that they used swinging fan to move mouse in order to look active on their work laptop. Sadly I never met anyone who said they have two creative jobs and haven't to lie about their task progress. Maybe they are just humble and exist somewhere. Along with copy of Half Life 3. I want to believe :-)

yellowapple 4y ago

> Then you proceed to require exact wording in agreement :-) Ain't my fault that lawyers are Sith :) > you're of course free to rationalize any way you want, but if it's so simple, why not bring it up with a manager? Because it's quite frankly none of their business. Corporations, contrary to what they might believe, do not own their employees. If they are dissatisfied with their employees' output, they are already more than willing to terminate employment for any reason, and that's that. > Funny. Last time I had to deal with it, entire ten people team had zero issues with engagement. Only one guy had And for all you know those ten people could be working second jobs, too, as is their right. You would have no idea because you are explicitly only measuring the ones who can't hack it, and have no visibility into those who can. > Yup slack time is important. Every reasonable company knows that. You need to wind down sometimes. That's why you have table soccer, xboxes etc Sorry to burst your Silicon Valley bubble, but such companies are very much in the minority. > You argue that, instead companies should assign second project to everyone, to help them relax? No, I argue that companies should not expect to own their employees 168 hours a week while only paying them for 40 at best. I further argue that employers hire and fire by productivity alone, and therefore employees have every right to contribute based on productivity alone rather than some archaic notion of ass-in-seat timekeeping.

dzikimarian 4y ago
My Silicon Valley bubble is located in eastern Poland. :-) It's pretty much standard here. Feel free to move, life is cheaper and health care is free (albeit has other issues). I mostly agree with you, simply yet to meet someone able to pull two jobs, without visible issues. Most of our team works hybrid - some remote, some on-site. Kinda hard to go dark in second full time job for 2-4 days each week. I assume from the fully remote ones, we've some which tries this, but it is maybe 1%-3%.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > My Silicon Valley bubble is located in eastern Poland. :-) It's pretty much standard here. Maybe things have changed in the last couple years, but my impression from the various Polish colleagues with whom I've worked was the opposite. The pay was (and apparently still is) also typically considerably below what's normal elsewhere in the EU (let alone beyond, e.g. here in the US) - which suggests yet more reason why someone working two jobs might not be very engaged at the local one (if push comes to shove and you gotta pick one or the other, it's gonna be the better-paying one that gets prioritized). > simply yet to meet someone able to pull two jobs, without visible issues. I guess what I'm getting at is it's possible (probable, even) that you have met folks working multiple jobs without visible issues - but the lack of visible issues and their rather understandable lack of disclosure means you wouldn't have reason to know.
  - dzikimarian 4y ago
    > also typically considerably below what's normal elsewhere in the EU (let alone beyond, e.g. here in the US) Behind US - yes. However you don't get local US salary anyway, because then US Corp would hire in US. Why bother to recruit overseas? Behind UE - depends which part. Norway? Probably yes. Spain? Not so much. Anyway aparat from rare outliners, differences aren't that much, because then nobody would work locally. >if push comes to shove and you gotta pick one or the other, it's gonna be the better-paying one that gets prioritized Exactly my point for this whole discussion(except sometimes it is not about money, but just who screams more). That's the moment, where you commit a fraud. > I guess what I'm getting at is it's possible (probable, even) that you have met folks working multiple jobs without visible issues Well, what's certain - I know people, who in private conversation (outside of my work context), admitted that they used swinging fan to move mouse in order to look active on their work laptop. Sadly I never met anyone who said they have two creative jobs and haven't to lie about their task progress. Maybe they are just humble and exist somewhere. Along with copy of Half Life 3. I want to believe :-)