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This is a wild over simplification of what 'chaos' theory is actually studying and the statements it makes. Chaos theory in general states that for some determ

by kcexn 4y ago

This is a wild over simplification of what 'chaos' theory is actually studying and the statements it makes. Chaos theory in general states that for some deterministic systems, small changes in the initial conditions can lead to a wildly different deterministic outcome. A closer metaphor than the butterfly metaphor is a car on a wet road. Think of driving your car on a wet road. This is a completely deterministic system, there is nothing we don't know about how cars handle on wet roads. When you take that one corner too fast however, your car loses traction on the road, whether your car spins out or just fish tails for a bit before straightening out depends a great deal on the speed and angle that you entered the corner at. If you don't know the speed or angle that you entered the corner accurately, you don't know if you can bring the car back under control again or not. I don't think anybody in the field of Quantum Mechanics doubts that it is possible for Quantum effects to be entirely deterministic. But it may be so sensitive to small changes in initial conditions (which may be as far back as the birth of the universe), that even if we knew the exact deterministic equations to solve for Quantum Mechanical systems, they would never make an accurate prediction.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> I don't think anybody in the field of Quantum Mechanics doubts that it is possible for Quantum effects to be entirely deterministic. That quantum effects cannot be deterministic is not only something people in the field believe, it is the majority position. The alternative goes under the name of "hidden variable" theory, and hidden variable theories aren't doing so well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory
- zielwolf 4y ago
  It's the apparent (as it doesn't really happen) collapse of the wave function that seems to transcend determinism. However that's not intrinsic to the function itself. It's only a supervenience of subjective consciousness as it were. The wave function itself is very much deterministic and nothing can violate that.
- kcexn 4y ago
  The issue isn't that deterministic models are necessarily untrue. But that it's meaningless to investigate the phenomena as a deterministic one. Even if we knew all of the hidden variables. And had the exact deterministic mathematical formula for the universe. The formula may still be so unstable that it would make exactly 0 predictions.
- DannyBee 4y ago
  In gp's particular case, it is the subclass of hidden variable theories known as pilot wave theories. All the local ones are dead due to Bell. Except super determinism I guess (both "sides" dont agree on whether it is local or non local) The nonlocal ones live, but have few real supporters (The article, unlike the grandparent comment, is closer to superdeterminism)
- mberning 4y ago
  Bernardo Kastrup took Sabine Hossenfelder to task over this and to say that she did not like it would be an understatement.
  - lupire 4y ago
    What are you referring to?
    - dagw 4y ago
      They're a philosopher (Kastrup) and physicist (Hossenfelder) who have been having a long going back and forth internet debate about super determinism and hidden variables. Google it and you will find plenty of YouTube videos from both of them. It's quite interesting if you're into that sort of thing
- russdill 4y ago
  You'd think something like "the uncertainty principle" by it's name alone would be a pretty good hint.
  - aliswe 4y ago
    Max Bohr explained the uncertainty principle in his Nobel laureate speech quite well (and in nontechnical terms) - even though it might be interpreted as some law today, it definitely began as a practical obstacle. Also, the hidden variable theories seem to be about practicality; for all intents and purposes, because it would be practically impossible to know that such hidden variables exist, they are deemed as non-existent.
    - russdill 4y ago
      I think you are folding two things together that are related but not the same. Hidden variables are about the state of an entangled system. The uncertainty principle can be applied to measurements taken of an entangled system but can also just refer to two quantities of a single particle such as it's position and momentum.
    - sampo 4y ago
      > Max Bohr Max Born
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > Also, the hidden variable theories seem to be about practicality; for all intents and purposes, because it would be practically impossible to know that such hidden variables exist, they are deemed as non-existent. Definitely not. Everyone would strongly prefer a model of the universe that was deterministic. Hidden variables don't get ignored just because we don't need them to make predictions. We really really really want them, for their own sake, but we cannot make them work.
      - naasking 4y ago
        > We really really really want them, for their own sake, but we cannot make them work. Sure we can. Bohmian mechanics showed how back in the 50s.
Rioghasarig 4y ago
I think the description in the article was actually good. In particular, the part where they say: > This is the metaphor used to describe the unpredictability of chaotic systems:tiny uncertainties in the initial conditions of a system grow and grow until they completely destroy the accuracy of any forecast This doesn't seem too far off from you say.

by kcexn 4y ago

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> I don't think anybody in the field of Quantum Mechanics doubts that it is possible for Quantum effects to be entirely deterministic. That quantum effects cannot be deterministic is not only something people in the field believe, it is the majority position. The alternative goes under the name of "hidden variable" theory, and hidden variable theories aren't doing so well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory

zielwolf 4y ago
It's the apparent (as it doesn't really happen) collapse of the wave function that seems to transcend determinism. However that's not intrinsic to the function itself. It's only a supervenience of subjective consciousness as it were. The wave function itself is very much deterministic and nothing can violate that.
kcexn 4y ago
The issue isn't that deterministic models are necessarily untrue. But that it's meaningless to investigate the phenomena as a deterministic one. Even if we knew all of the hidden variables. And had the exact deterministic mathematical formula for the universe. The formula may still be so unstable that it would make exactly 0 predictions.
DannyBee 4y ago
In gp's particular case, it is the subclass of hidden variable theories known as pilot wave theories. All the local ones are dead due to Bell. Except super determinism I guess (both "sides" dont agree on whether it is local or non local) The nonlocal ones live, but have few real supporters (The article, unlike the grandparent comment, is closer to superdeterminism)
mberning 4y ago
Bernardo Kastrup took Sabine Hossenfelder to task over this and to say that she did not like it would be an understatement.
- lupire 4y ago
  What are you referring to?
  - dagw 4y ago
    They're a philosopher (Kastrup) and physicist (Hossenfelder) who have been having a long going back and forth internet debate about super determinism and hidden variables. Google it and you will find plenty of YouTube videos from both of them. It's quite interesting if you're into that sort of thing
russdill 4y ago
You'd think something like "the uncertainty principle" by it's name alone would be a pretty good hint.
- aliswe 4y ago
  Max Bohr explained the uncertainty principle in his Nobel laureate speech quite well (and in nontechnical terms) - even though it might be interpreted as some law today, it definitely began as a practical obstacle. Also, the hidden variable theories seem to be about practicality; for all intents and purposes, because it would be practically impossible to know that such hidden variables exist, they are deemed as non-existent.
  - russdill 4y ago
    I think you are folding two things together that are related but not the same. Hidden variables are about the state of an entangled system. The uncertainty principle can be applied to measurements taken of an entangled system but can also just refer to two quantities of a single particle such as it's position and momentum.
  - sampo 4y ago
    > Max Bohr Max Born
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > Also, the hidden variable theories seem to be about practicality; for all intents and purposes, because it would be practically impossible to know that such hidden variables exist, they are deemed as non-existent. Definitely not. Everyone would strongly prefer a model of the universe that was deterministic. Hidden variables don't get ignored just because we don't need them to make predictions. We really really really want them, for their own sake, but we cannot make them work.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > We really really really want them, for their own sake, but we cannot make them work. Sure we can. Bohmian mechanics showed how back in the 50s.

Rioghasarig 4y ago

I think the description in the article was actually good. In particular, the part where they say: > This is the metaphor used to describe the unpredictability of chaotic systems:tiny uncertainties in the initial conditions of a system grow and grow until they completely destroy the accuracy of any forecast This doesn't seem too far off from you say.