4 ms·

There are plenty of countries that did not force unnecessary school closures and other useless covid theatre onto their students, and students in those countrie

There are plenty of countries that did not force unnecessary school closures and other useless covid theatre onto their students, and students in those countries do not exhibit the same amount of unprecedented learning loss as students in the US have, despite similar levels of infections across countries. Pandemic policies are a huge elephant in the room, and it's extremely annoying to see people like you trying to pin the blame on the pandemic itself. School closures were a disastrous policy, full stop. This is the price of that choice of policy.

AnthonBerg 4y ago
I am talking about an effect. (You are talking about… people like me? Being extremely annoying? Because I’m not talking about a different aspect than the one I am talking about?) How can we measure this effect? How do you know that it’s not the measured cognitive deficit after the infection and only school closures? How was it measured? We’d want to analyse and investigate the effect, right?
- giantg2 4y ago
  Do you have any relevant data? We can what-if all day. If you have data pointing to this, I would like to see it. Your first was a legitimate comment for discussion. The recent one doesn't seem interested in a reasonable discussion. The prior commenter makes a solid point and you get hand-wavey because there's not a study supporting it... when your initial comment was just as theoretical (does your study show this is applicable to kids, at what rate, in which countries, what are their test score results, etc).
  - AnthonBerg 4y ago
    I’d invite you to take a look at the multitude of scientific results on cognitive impairment after infection and the numerous physiological mechanisms which are known to be at play. A number of them pop up here on Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=7%2C39&q=covid+cognitive+deficit&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=7%2C39&q=cov... Note that this is the only data which has been provided in this discussion as far as I can see right now. What made the commenter’s solid point a solid point? Was there data?
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Please point the pediatric studies, as requested. "In sum, there is clear evidence for a negative effect of COVID-19-related school closures on student achievement" Here's one example of shutdown harm. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481663/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481663/ So now who has the only pertianate data? Don't you have a study pointing the school test scores being lower due to physiological impairment? Please stop trolling this topic now.
      - AnthonBerg 4y ago
        Of course shutting down schools did impact grades. Of course it did! In part: Closing schools was poorly executed, and the lockdown/closure style of mitigation was never based in the scientific facts of the main mode of transmission, so it was always a blunt and stupid instrument. For the avoidance of doubt: I’m raising the point that we should look at other things too. And interested in thinking about how we would look. — I don’t have pediatric studies on cognitive impairment. I’ve seen quite a bit of literature on the mechanisms that cause it in adults, and only poor reasoning for children being exempt from severe and/or long-term effects. (Is this disputed?) So I’m for monitoring and studying and looking. And thinking about how to do it.
        giantg2 4y ago
        "And thinking about how to do it." Essentially you can't. Multiple other factors have changed that would affect grades. If you strictly want intelligence and not just grades, then you'll have to identify kids that had recent intelligence tests before the pandemic and compare them to others. This is problematic because types of intelligence can vary, so some areas might not be covered by the tests. In general, few kids recieve IQ tests and so there's likely to be observation bias with a higher number of kids being tested for some reason. Finally, it's unlikely you could track pre-/post-infection since kids haven't typically been testing every week and mild to asymptomatic cases are fairly common I'm children. Best case, you can do very small studies on an individual level without control groups, essentially individual case studies. Even if you can, it's not going to answer the questions related to this article/thread.
- henrikschroder 4y ago
  > I am talking about an effect. The effect is not present in countries that did not close schools. The effect strongly correlates with the level of disruption to schools and schooling caused by policy choices. The effect does not correlate with infection levels among that cohort of the population. There is a strong political desire for politicians who enacted these disastrous policies to avoid blame for them, one strategy is to frame all the policy choices as unavoidable, i.e. claiming that you "had to close schools". Another political strategy is to blameshift all the bad effects onto the virus itself, which is exactly what you're doing. Your post is a prime example of "JAQing off"; you are "just asking questions", saying things like "shouldn't we study this?", or "there are no studies showing it's because of <insert obvious explanation here>".
  - AnthonBerg 4y ago
    > Another political strategy is to blameshift all the bad effects onto the virus itself, which is exactly what you're doing. What’s up with this “you are like this and that”? What’s with the accusations and insults? What’s your problem? Take it elsewhere! — On topic, we’re diverging on the word effect. I am using the word effect to mean “something that the illness is known to do in certain measure” – an effect of the disease on the population. You’re using the word effect to mean effect size in a particular study. It’s an understandable divergence. Just to make sure: I am not saying. That the grades dropping. Is caused by post COVID cognitive impairment. I said that it was interesting to think about how you’d design a study so it would control for such an effect. I see studies about cognitive impairment on the individual level. I see studies about this and that on a population level. I see lots of people saying there’s no connection. I don’t see how they know that.
drc500free 4y ago
Can we please focus on arguments and not use phrases like "people like you"?
analog31 4y ago
Would our infection rates have been similar, had we left schools open? I'm skeptical. How about other measures to limit transmission (voluntary and mandatory), were they also similar in those countries?

AnthonBerg 4y ago

I am talking about an effect. (You are talking about… people like me? Being extremely annoying? Because I’m not talking about a different aspect than the one I am talking about?) How can we measure this effect? How do you know that it’s not the measured cognitive deficit after the infection and only school closures? How was it measured? We’d want to analyse and investigate the effect, right?

giantg2 4y ago
Do you have any relevant data? We can what-if all day. If you have data pointing to this, I would like to see it. Your first was a legitimate comment for discussion. The recent one doesn't seem interested in a reasonable discussion. The prior commenter makes a solid point and you get hand-wavey because there's not a study supporting it... when your initial comment was just as theoretical (does your study show this is applicable to kids, at what rate, in which countries, what are their test score results, etc).
- AnthonBerg 4y ago
  I’d invite you to take a look at the multitude of scientific results on cognitive impairment after infection and the numerous physiological mechanisms which are known to be at play. A number of them pop up here on Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=7%2C39&q=covid+cognitive+deficit&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=7%2C39&q=cov... Note that this is the only data which has been provided in this discussion as far as I can see right now. What made the commenter’s solid point a solid point? Was there data?
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Please point the pediatric studies, as requested. "In sum, there is clear evidence for a negative effect of COVID-19-related school closures on student achievement" Here's one example of shutdown harm. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481663/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481663/ So now who has the only pertianate data? Don't you have a study pointing the school test scores being lower due to physiological impairment? Please stop trolling this topic now.
    - AnthonBerg 4y ago
      Of course shutting down schools did impact grades. Of course it did! In part: Closing schools was poorly executed, and the lockdown/closure style of mitigation was never based in the scientific facts of the main mode of transmission, so it was always a blunt and stupid instrument. For the avoidance of doubt: I’m raising the point that we should look at other things too. And interested in thinking about how we would look. — I don’t have pediatric studies on cognitive impairment. I’ve seen quite a bit of literature on the mechanisms that cause it in adults, and only poor reasoning for children being exempt from severe and/or long-term effects. (Is this disputed?) So I’m for monitoring and studying and looking. And thinking about how to do it.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        "And thinking about how to do it." Essentially you can't. Multiple other factors have changed that would affect grades. If you strictly want intelligence and not just grades, then you'll have to identify kids that had recent intelligence tests before the pandemic and compare them to others. This is problematic because types of intelligence can vary, so some areas might not be covered by the tests. In general, few kids recieve IQ tests and so there's likely to be observation bias with a higher number of kids being tested for some reason. Finally, it's unlikely you could track pre-/post-infection since kids haven't typically been testing every week and mild to asymptomatic cases are fairly common I'm children. Best case, you can do very small studies on an individual level without control groups, essentially individual case studies. Even if you can, it's not going to answer the questions related to this article/thread.
henrikschroder 4y ago
> I am talking about an effect. The effect is not present in countries that did not close schools. The effect strongly correlates with the level of disruption to schools and schooling caused by policy choices. The effect does not correlate with infection levels among that cohort of the population. There is a strong political desire for politicians who enacted these disastrous policies to avoid blame for them, one strategy is to frame all the policy choices as unavoidable, i.e. claiming that you "had to close schools". Another political strategy is to blameshift all the bad effects onto the virus itself, which is exactly what you're doing. Your post is a prime example of "JAQing off"; you are "just asking questions", saying things like "shouldn't we study this?", or "there are no studies showing it's because of <insert obvious explanation here>".
- AnthonBerg 4y ago
  > Another political strategy is to blameshift all the bad effects onto the virus itself, which is exactly what you're doing. What’s up with this “you are like this and that”? What’s with the accusations and insults? What’s your problem? Take it elsewhere! — On topic, we’re diverging on the word effect. I am using the word effect to mean “something that the illness is known to do in certain measure” – an effect of the disease on the population. You’re using the word effect to mean effect size in a particular study. It’s an understandable divergence. Just to make sure: I am not saying. That the grades dropping. Is caused by post COVID cognitive impairment. I said that it was interesting to think about how you’d design a study so it would control for such an effect. I see studies about cognitive impairment on the individual level. I see studies about this and that on a population level. I see lots of people saying there’s no connection. I don’t see how they know that.

drc500free 4y ago

Can we please focus on arguments and not use phrases like "people like you"?

analog31 4y ago

Would our infection rates have been similar, had we left schools open? I'm skeptical. How about other measures to limit transmission (voluntary and mandatory), were they also similar in those countries?