6 ms·

I think the article covers the issue pretty well, collage to many was as inevitable as buying a house, it was so ingrained into cultural norms that the though o

by kls 15y ago

I think the article covers the issue pretty well, collage to many was as inevitable as buying a house, it was so ingrained into cultural norms that the though of not going never even crossed his mind. There are cultural forces and norms that have a strong influence on peoples actions without them even contemplating an alternative point of view or the ramification of the action. Cultural wisdom and norms like "put your money in real estate, it never goes down", "we are a military family" or "Everyone in my family goes to college" are strong subconsciously influencing factors, to just put it on the person alone ignores a lot of factors that got us into this mess.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
anamax 15y ago
> I think the article covers the issue pretty well, collage to many was as inevitable as buying a house, it was so ingrained into cultural norms that the though of not going never even crossed his mind. Is that "ingrain" stronger than "He was just following orders"? I ask because few people accept the latter excuse. > Cultural wisdom and norms like "put your money in real estate, it never goes down", That sounds like a lame excuse, as real estate is one of the classic cycles.
- kls 15y ago
  That sounds like a lame excuse, as real estate is one of the classic cycles It may sound lame to you, but what you fail to see is perspective, many people listen to that cultural wisdom and many people do "just follow orders" it's the reason we have this mess. Are they totally blameless? no. should they have researched what they where getting into? yes. But both of those require someone actually even beginning to think it through in the first place and that is the point. When it comes to social norms like this, because of socital habits they don't even think. Just like the guy just following orders, he did not think through his actions. Does that absolve them from guilt or responsibility? no. Does it mean we should reflect on how it happened and have empathy? yes. But just like the guy following orders, the system that indoctrinated him into not thinking requires some of the scorn and blame. Hitler was just as much to blame as the guard. It's preposterous to view it any other way. To do so, absolves guilty parties of their burden of the blame. It's not that the author is not guilty of failing to think, it is that the system is also guilty of conditioning children in that manner. We (society, the education system, finance) share the blame, whether you like that fact or not. From your perspective you see them as excuses for the author to be blameless for his actions. From my perspective, he is not the only accountable party. Just as in real estate, it is not an excuse that people don't understand cycles, but it is a reality that people relying on "cultural wisdom" invested in real estate "because it is the safest investment". The fact that they did not even know what a cycle was, does not absolve them from responsibility for their action, but it does not absolve us as a society for perpetuating that "cultural wisdom". Life is never that cut and dry, telling a person to suck it up because you believe it is an excuse, does nothing to address the systemic issues at play, that are just as responsible as the individual.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > Hitler was just as much to blame as the guard. So, you want to blame his parents. If not them, then who is responsible for this "ingrain". > Does that absolve them from guilt or responsibility? no And then you write several paragraphs trying to shift blame. If, as you argue, he's not competent to think about the consequences of his decisions, he's not competent to vote, make those decisions, and so on. > but it does not absolve us as a society for perpetuating that "cultural wisdom". "us as a society" did no such thing. Yes, some folks said "real estate is a safe investment". However, other folks were saying the exact opposite. Still others had different messages. And the exact same is true of college educations, and of spending lots of money to become an audio engineer.
    - kls 15y ago
      So, you want to blame his parents. If not them, then who is responsible for this "ingrain". Yes, as well as the predatory lenders, targeted marketers and a host of others working to dumb down the consumer. Lack of critical reasoning increases impulsive and conspicuous consumption, it is not a coincidence that critical reasoning and the intellectual lazy have increased along with consumption. To believe that culture and propaganda does not have the ability to influence an individuals decision making is to ignore the body of evidence that fascism (and later the soviets) created for us and used with deadly precision. And then you write several paragraphs trying to shift blame. I hold all parties equally accountable, that was clear in my writing. "us as a society" did no such thing. Yes, some folks said "real estate is a safe investment". However, other folks were saying the exact opposite. Still others had different messages. Real estate agents where free to perpetuate the myth with no repercussions, no one has went to jail over predatory loans, when direct corruption on their part, has been highlighted by several whistle-blowers. The financial industry was bailed out. To me that is pretty indicative of that we as a society are ok with people not critically thinking. Further, many people hold out some of those individuals to be professionals, that are being paid to do the thinking and analysis for them. When I go to my CPA, I expect him to be a tax professional, I do not educate myself in tax law because, I pay the CPA to do so. To educate myself in it would be redundant and a waste of my time and money. It would also kill human progress to require everyone to educate themselves on every aspect of their life to ensure they don't get screwed. We don't expect people to know mechanics and when a mechanic recommends more work than is necessary we generally consider it fraud. Again the person that did not educate themselves is to blame for not educating themselves or at the least seeking a second opinion, but it does not absolve the mechanic of his fraud. What you suggest is untenable as a society, we have to rely on professionals to make decisions for us, as a society becomes more complex we have to delegate more. To not do so would stagnate us as a civilization. We should expect professional to act professional, and hold them as an accountable party when they do not. In this specific example we should expect, lenders to help children understand the conditions of the loan and the full projected debt and payment at the end of the loans. So a student can see what their debt and payment projections will look like at the end of their education. We should expect the schools to have clear, data on what their graduated of specific disciplines make, so that a student can compare that to the debt burden that they will incur. Finally, we should expect sales and marketing to paint a true picture of the prospects for employment and education. Until we do, we as a society share the blame. We can get into the semantics of who "we" are, but that is playing the blame game, the reality is, "we" as a society should not allow predatory practices in any market where large debt decision will be made. Until we do, we share some of the culpability of the indebted.

by kls 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

anamax 15y ago

> I think the article covers the issue pretty well, collage to many was as inevitable as buying a house, it was so ingrained into cultural norms that the though of not going never even crossed his mind. Is that "ingrain" stronger than "He was just following orders"? I ask because few people accept the latter excuse. > Cultural wisdom and norms like "put your money in real estate, it never goes down", That sounds like a lame excuse, as real estate is one of the classic cycles.

kls 15y ago
That sounds like a lame excuse, as real estate is one of the classic cycles It may sound lame to you, but what you fail to see is perspective, many people listen to that cultural wisdom and many people do "just follow orders" it's the reason we have this mess. Are they totally blameless? no. should they have researched what they where getting into? yes. But both of those require someone actually even beginning to think it through in the first place and that is the point. When it comes to social norms like this, because of socital habits they don't even think. Just like the guy just following orders, he did not think through his actions. Does that absolve them from guilt or responsibility? no. Does it mean we should reflect on how it happened and have empathy? yes. But just like the guy following orders, the system that indoctrinated him into not thinking requires some of the scorn and blame. Hitler was just as much to blame as the guard. It's preposterous to view it any other way. To do so, absolves guilty parties of their burden of the blame. It's not that the author is not guilty of failing to think, it is that the system is also guilty of conditioning children in that manner. We (society, the education system, finance) share the blame, whether you like that fact or not. From your perspective you see them as excuses for the author to be blameless for his actions. From my perspective, he is not the only accountable party. Just as in real estate, it is not an excuse that people don't understand cycles, but it is a reality that people relying on "cultural wisdom" invested in real estate "because it is the safest investment". The fact that they did not even know what a cycle was, does not absolve them from responsibility for their action, but it does not absolve us as a society for perpetuating that "cultural wisdom". Life is never that cut and dry, telling a person to suck it up because you believe it is an excuse, does nothing to address the systemic issues at play, that are just as responsible as the individual.
- anamax 15y ago
  > Hitler was just as much to blame as the guard. So, you want to blame his parents. If not them, then who is responsible for this "ingrain". > Does that absolve them from guilt or responsibility? no And then you write several paragraphs trying to shift blame. If, as you argue, he's not competent to think about the consequences of his decisions, he's not competent to vote, make those decisions, and so on. > but it does not absolve us as a society for perpetuating that "cultural wisdom". "us as a society" did no such thing. Yes, some folks said "real estate is a safe investment". However, other folks were saying the exact opposite. Still others had different messages. And the exact same is true of college educations, and of spending lots of money to become an audio engineer.
  - kls 15y ago
    So, you want to blame his parents. If not them, then who is responsible for this "ingrain". Yes, as well as the predatory lenders, targeted marketers and a host of others working to dumb down the consumer. Lack of critical reasoning increases impulsive and conspicuous consumption, it is not a coincidence that critical reasoning and the intellectual lazy have increased along with consumption. To believe that culture and propaganda does not have the ability to influence an individuals decision making is to ignore the body of evidence that fascism (and later the soviets) created for us and used with deadly precision. And then you write several paragraphs trying to shift blame. I hold all parties equally accountable, that was clear in my writing. "us as a society" did no such thing. Yes, some folks said "real estate is a safe investment". However, other folks were saying the exact opposite. Still others had different messages. Real estate agents where free to perpetuate the myth with no repercussions, no one has went to jail over predatory loans, when direct corruption on their part, has been highlighted by several whistle-blowers. The financial industry was bailed out. To me that is pretty indicative of that we as a society are ok with people not critically thinking. Further, many people hold out some of those individuals to be professionals, that are being paid to do the thinking and analysis for them. When I go to my CPA, I expect him to be a tax professional, I do not educate myself in tax law because, I pay the CPA to do so. To educate myself in it would be redundant and a waste of my time and money. It would also kill human progress to require everyone to educate themselves on every aspect of their life to ensure they don't get screwed. We don't expect people to know mechanics and when a mechanic recommends more work than is necessary we generally consider it fraud. Again the person that did not educate themselves is to blame for not educating themselves or at the least seeking a second opinion, but it does not absolve the mechanic of his fraud. What you suggest is untenable as a society, we have to rely on professionals to make decisions for us, as a society becomes more complex we have to delegate more. To not do so would stagnate us as a civilization. We should expect professional to act professional, and hold them as an accountable party when they do not. In this specific example we should expect, lenders to help children understand the conditions of the loan and the full projected debt and payment at the end of the loans. So a student can see what their debt and payment projections will look like at the end of their education. We should expect the schools to have clear, data on what their graduated of specific disciplines make, so that a student can compare that to the debt burden that they will incur. Finally, we should expect sales and marketing to paint a true picture of the prospects for employment and education. Until we do, we as a society share the blame. We can get into the semantics of who "we" are, but that is playing the blame game, the reality is, "we" as a society should not allow predatory practices in any market where large debt decision will be made. Until we do, we share some of the culpability of the indebted.