5 ms·

No, it's the most important aspect for any new Google product announcement. It's not up to commenters to behave better, it is up to Google. The comments cannot

by Beldin 4y ago

No, it's the most important aspect for any new Google product announcement. It's not up to commenters to behave better, it is up to Google. The comments cannot be considered garbage, since they ask the most pertinent question: why is this announcement worth talking about? And yes, Google created this situation itself. And now it has to justify each new product's life span. Because we don't trust that at all. Unlike startups, Google can easily afford to run a product at a loss for years. Yet we trust them less than startups with only a few months of runway.

Invictus0 4y ago
We're on a forum for startups. 99% of them get shutdown. This is not a product, it's a free and open source OS, a gift to the world. You cannot shut down open source--if it matters so much to you then maintain it yourself.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  It's a rare for-profit company that releases anything significant from pure niceness so I can't read it as a gift. It's part of a corporate strategy; don't confuse it with largesse.
  - green-eclipse 4y ago
    I mostly agree with your comment. However I'll also say that Google, far more than any of the other tech titans, has a very long history of deeply supporting and embracing open source. It's part of the ethos, not just lip service.
    - jtgans 4y ago
      TL for KataOS here. Yes, the actual point of the announcement is to get the word out about the project. We want to make it as open as possible, and while we have some hurdles with getting the entire system out in a collaborative fashion, we're doing our darndest to do so. This release actually reflects the hard-won efforts of several engineers on the team to get this out.
      - zasdffaa 4y ago
        Respect to you + your engineers, I was not having a go at you all, and I genuinely thank you for your work. I was merely objecting to some commenter describing it in a way I felt was misleading. Keep it up!
  - amf12 4y ago
    > It's a rare for-profit company that releases anything significant from pure niceness so I can't read it as a gift. Philosophically speaking, do most people do something out of pure altruism? I personally don't believe so. Everyone has an agenda - be it to feel better, to score brownie points, to make people like them, etc. Why should we expect for-profit corps to be altruistic? We should remember their for-profit motives and also accept they can do good deed for non-altruistic reasons.
    - zasdffaa 4y ago
      It may be a cultural thing, I'm a brit, you're like from the US, but yes over here there is a culture of altruism to a degree that may be greater than in the US (eg. over here we donate blood for free). I'm talking monetary compensation thought. On a personal level I try to help because another's happiness becomes mine.
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        Pretty sure the majority of blood donations in the US are free (or freeish, like you might get a donut and orange juice).
      - amf12 4y ago
        > On a personal level I try to help because another's happiness becomes mine. There you go, so you help others to feel happiness yourself. In which case, its not purely altruistic.
        zasdffaa 4y ago
        There is no such thing as pure altruism, where did I say there was? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Evolutionary_explanations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Evolutionary_explanat...) I gave my own reasons, that's all. But it's not monetary. Why do people like you seem determined that nothing good can exist in other people. Your tribe turns everything to shit.
remus 4y ago
> The comments cannot be considered garbage, since they ask the most pertinent question: why is this announcement worth talking about? I disagree. Google's habit of killing projects off is interesting/annoying/frustrating but I don't think a trove of shallow "I wonder when google will kill this? lol" comments on every google product announcement add to the discussion.
- laurentlbm 4y ago
  They're a bit much, but in this case, they've clearly added to the discussion. It helped to show the distrust and skepticism around product announcements by Google. It also helps us question whether it's worth it for us to invest time, money and/or effort into a project.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
sz4kerto 4y ago
The problem is that (HN) sentiment is generally lagging behind reality -- usually many-many years. There are still tons of comments on HN that refer to the evil Micro$oft as if 2022 MS was the same as the 1991 MS (while it is 'just' a large enterprise cloud company), etc. When anti-<some company> comments peak on HN then the company is usually already very different. So if you're betting on a product / service, then relying on Internet sentiment is generally a bad idea. Analogy: the best time to buy a car from a specific manufacturer is when everyone knows that the manufacturer is only producing crappy cars. Because that's when they're likely doing everything they can to rectify their reputation. (And the other way around.) Examples: French cars manufactured around 2010 have really good quality (especially the PSA models), because they produced crap around 2000 so by 2008 everyone knew that they should not buy a Citroen. BMW's from 2008 have incredibly many quality issues as BMW's reputation peaked around that era, so they reaped the profits that they could (and this was all based on the all-around great cars from a decade earlier).
- masklinn 4y ago
  That’s a very topical comment what with Google announcing they were killing Stadia two weeks back.
- mcphage 4y ago
  > Analogy: the best time to buy a car from a specific manufacturer is when everyone knows that the manufacturer is only producing crappy cars. Because that's when they're likely doing everything they can to rectify their reputation. Maybe—or maybe they’re still in the stage when they’re producing crappy cars, and unwilling to commit to the serious changes that would ultimately lead to a better product and better reputation.
- jen20 4y ago
  Microsoft get schtick from people who know what they are talking about not because of their previous monopoly-abusing, security-insensitive ways, but because of their _current_ privacy-invading, data-harvesting, lowest-common-denominator-accepting approaches to everything. No amount of contributions to other projects is going to overcome that, nor should it, since it is possible to do some things well and others poorly. The (awful) analogy certainly doesn't even hold: my late-2009 BMW is still going strong without a hint of anything beyond routine maintenance, yet according to this screed it should be crap...
jtgans 4y ago
Well, as the TL for this engineer-driven research prject, I have to say it's quite demotivating to read these sorts of comments. As an engineer, I don't get much say in what other parts of the company do, but unfortunately, I have to bear the brunt of the blowback every time it happens, in social forums like this one, and in B2B interactions. It's quite frustrating, actually.
- warning26 4y ago
  Well then, I hope that perhaps you and similarly-minded engineers can channel that frustration into pressuring your incompetent leadership to alter their policy of mindlessly killing products.
- endlessvoid94 4y ago
  I feel ya. Have you ever seen a google project posted and NOT seen these comments?
- atty 4y ago
  I work for an automotive OEM, and when a car has a serious recall, I don’t get to say “gee it’s frustrating to see the whole of my company get smeared for one engineering mistake I wasn’t a part of.” There’s no reason for customers or the public to try and figure out exactly what part of the company failed. It’s a systemic failure of the entire company, and it reflects negatively on all of us. Same for you. You either need to fix Google’s long term support issues from the inside, or expect more of the same.
  - fn-mote 4y ago
    > It’s a systemic failure of the entire company, and it reflects negatively on all of us. > [...] You either need to fix Google’s long term support issues from the inside, or expect more of the same. Some of us knowingly work for organizations that, in the aggregate, are crap. We stay and do the best we can. If somebody put that bullcrap of fixing our entire system on me, I'd laugh. Pretend you did that to me -- I would think that you have a poor understanding of the systemic issues causing the problems that bother you. To me there isn't a clear line from "present" to "desirable future", and simplistic approaches ("antitrust disassemble google") to complex problems aren't actually going to work (all IMO). Sometimes you do the best you can, help the people you can help, and feel sorry for the rest... but leaving isn't going to make it better, it's going to make it worse, because your work is above average. Actually, I guess the parent knows this since the are still working in the automobile industry but for others - perhaps what's needed is just a thicker hide, and a willingness to say "yep, it's gonna get killed at some point, good thing we MADE IT OPEN SOURCE so others can carry it forward."

by Beldin 4y ago

Invictus0 4y ago

We're on a forum for startups. 99% of them get shutdown. This is not a product, it's a free and open source OS, a gift to the world. You cannot shut down open source--if it matters so much to you then maintain it yourself.

zasdffaa 4y ago
It's a rare for-profit company that releases anything significant from pure niceness so I can't read it as a gift. It's part of a corporate strategy; don't confuse it with largesse.
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  I mostly agree with your comment. However I'll also say that Google, far more than any of the other tech titans, has a very long history of deeply supporting and embracing open source. It's part of the ethos, not just lip service.
  - jtgans 4y ago
    TL for KataOS here. Yes, the actual point of the announcement is to get the word out about the project. We want to make it as open as possible, and while we have some hurdles with getting the entire system out in a collaborative fashion, we're doing our darndest to do so. This release actually reflects the hard-won efforts of several engineers on the team to get this out.
    - zasdffaa 4y ago
      Respect to you + your engineers, I was not having a go at you all, and I genuinely thank you for your work. I was merely objecting to some commenter describing it in a way I felt was misleading. Keep it up!
- amf12 4y ago
  > It's a rare for-profit company that releases anything significant from pure niceness so I can't read it as a gift. Philosophically speaking, do most people do something out of pure altruism? I personally don't believe so. Everyone has an agenda - be it to feel better, to score brownie points, to make people like them, etc. Why should we expect for-profit corps to be altruistic? We should remember their for-profit motives and also accept they can do good deed for non-altruistic reasons.
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    It may be a cultural thing, I'm a brit, you're like from the US, but yes over here there is a culture of altruism to a degree that may be greater than in the US (eg. over here we donate blood for free). I'm talking monetary compensation thought. On a personal level I try to help because another's happiness becomes mine.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      Pretty sure the majority of blood donations in the US are free (or freeish, like you might get a donut and orange juice).
    - amf12 4y ago
      > On a personal level I try to help because another's happiness becomes mine. There you go, so you help others to feel happiness yourself. In which case, its not purely altruistic.
      - zasdffaa 4y ago
        There is no such thing as pure altruism, where did I say there was? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Evolutionary_explanations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Evolutionary_explanat...) I gave my own reasons, that's all. But it's not monetary. Why do people like you seem determined that nothing good can exist in other people. Your tribe turns everything to shit.

remus 4y ago

> The comments cannot be considered garbage, since they ask the most pertinent question: why is this announcement worth talking about? I disagree. Google's habit of killing projects off is interesting/annoying/frustrating but I don't think a trove of shallow "I wonder when google will kill this? lol" comments on every google product announcement add to the discussion.

laurentlbm 4y ago
They're a bit much, but in this case, they've clearly added to the discussion. It helped to show the distrust and skepticism around product announcements by Google. It also helps us question whether it's worth it for us to invest time, money and/or effort into a project.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

sz4kerto 4y ago

The problem is that (HN) sentiment is generally lagging behind reality -- usually many-many years. There are still tons of comments on HN that refer to the evil Micro$oft as if 2022 MS was the same as the 1991 MS (while it is 'just' a large enterprise cloud company), etc. When anti-<some company> comments peak on HN then the company is usually already very different. So if you're betting on a product / service, then relying on Internet sentiment is generally a bad idea. Analogy: the best time to buy a car from a specific manufacturer is when everyone knows that the manufacturer is only producing crappy cars. Because that's when they're likely doing everything they can to rectify their reputation. (And the other way around.) Examples: French cars manufactured around 2010 have really good quality (especially the PSA models), because they produced crap around 2000 so by 2008 everyone knew that they should not buy a Citroen. BMW's from 2008 have incredibly many quality issues as BMW's reputation peaked around that era, so they reaped the profits that they could (and this was all based on the all-around great cars from a decade earlier).

masklinn 4y ago
That’s a very topical comment what with Google announcing they were killing Stadia two weeks back.
mcphage 4y ago
> Analogy: the best time to buy a car from a specific manufacturer is when everyone knows that the manufacturer is only producing crappy cars. Because that's when they're likely doing everything they can to rectify their reputation. Maybe—or maybe they’re still in the stage when they’re producing crappy cars, and unwilling to commit to the serious changes that would ultimately lead to a better product and better reputation.
jen20 4y ago
Microsoft get schtick from people who know what they are talking about not because of their previous monopoly-abusing, security-insensitive ways, but because of their _current_ privacy-invading, data-harvesting, lowest-common-denominator-accepting approaches to everything. No amount of contributions to other projects is going to overcome that, nor should it, since it is possible to do some things well and others poorly. The (awful) analogy certainly doesn't even hold: my late-2009 BMW is still going strong without a hint of anything beyond routine maintenance, yet according to this screed it should be crap...

jtgans 4y ago

Well, as the TL for this engineer-driven research prject, I have to say it's quite demotivating to read these sorts of comments. As an engineer, I don't get much say in what other parts of the company do, but unfortunately, I have to bear the brunt of the blowback every time it happens, in social forums like this one, and in B2B interactions. It's quite frustrating, actually.

warning26 4y ago
Well then, I hope that perhaps you and similarly-minded engineers can channel that frustration into pressuring your incompetent leadership to alter their policy of mindlessly killing products.
endlessvoid94 4y ago
I feel ya. Have you ever seen a google project posted and NOT seen these comments?
atty 4y ago
I work for an automotive OEM, and when a car has a serious recall, I don’t get to say “gee it’s frustrating to see the whole of my company get smeared for one engineering mistake I wasn’t a part of.” There’s no reason for customers or the public to try and figure out exactly what part of the company failed. It’s a systemic failure of the entire company, and it reflects negatively on all of us. Same for you. You either need to fix Google’s long term support issues from the inside, or expect more of the same.
- fn-mote 4y ago
  > It’s a systemic failure of the entire company, and it reflects negatively on all of us. > [...] You either need to fix Google’s long term support issues from the inside, or expect more of the same. Some of us knowingly work for organizations that, in the aggregate, are crap. We stay and do the best we can. If somebody put that bullcrap of fixing our entire system on me, I'd laugh. Pretend you did that to me -- I would think that you have a poor understanding of the systemic issues causing the problems that bother you. To me there isn't a clear line from "present" to "desirable future", and simplistic approaches ("antitrust disassemble google") to complex problems aren't actually going to work (all IMO). Sometimes you do the best you can, help the people you can help, and feel sorry for the rest... but leaving isn't going to make it better, it's going to make it worse, because your work is above average. Actually, I guess the parent knows this since the are still working in the automobile industry but for others - perhaps what's needed is just a thicker hide, and a willingness to say "yep, it's gonna get killed at some point, good thing we MADE IT OPEN SOURCE so others can carry it forward."