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Interesting that Fuchsia isn't mentioned, being capability based and having a microkernel. Seems like there should have been a short explanation of why they di

by tyingq 4y ago

Interesting that Fuchsia isn't mentioned, being capability based and having a microkernel. Seems like there should have been a short explanation of why they didn't use it.

deleted 4y ago
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jeroenhd 4y ago
I think Fuchsia and KataOS server different purposes. If I read this announcement correctly, KataOS is aimed more at smart light bulbs and such whereas Fuchsia is aimed at relatively powerful devices with a UI (thermostats, smart clocks, etc.) or with significant processing capabilities (Google Home and other smart speakers). The Github page for Sparrow is counting RAM usage in megabytes with decimals, I don think Fuchsia will even run with less than 30MB of RAM. Their example for OOM events shows a device with 8GB of RAM, though I find it doubtful that even Google's hardware is that wasteful with system resources.
- tyingq 4y ago
  Ah, makes sense. I had seen the mention that the KataOS implementation is running on 64-bit ARM now in QEMU, which sounded more like Fuschia's space. Though those small devices are getting pretty big hardware these days, since it's cheap now. Some of the Nest thermostats have 512MB of RAM, and 2GB in the higher end Home hubs.
  - Teknoman117 4y ago
    It's kinda nutty to me that my thermostat has more RAM than my Windows XP laptop did 20 years ago. Based on the function it serves I'm actually kind of appalled. It's a thermostat. You set the temperature and a schedule and it follows along. An ESP32 can do all the Wifi and Bluetooth connectivity you want with half a megabyte of RAM. Maybe you need a few megabytes for a framebuffer for the screen it has. But half a gigabyte?!
    - adave 4y ago
      Yeah a lot more goes into the Device than what you would expect. It's not some RTOS base hack-a-day kind of product.
    - IceWreck 4y ago
      Well if your thermostat or meeting room door sign runs an instance of chromium in kiosk mode to use HTML/CSS/JS for its UI then you need 2 gigabytes of RAM.
- ksec 4y ago
  >The Github page for Sparrow is counting RAM usage in megabytes with decimals, I had to look it up [1] and fact check this statement. Turns out it really is "megabytes with decimals". Amazing! [1] https://github.com/AmbiML/sparrow-manifest https://github.com/AmbiML/sparrow-manifest
- pantalaimon 4y ago
  So it’s more aimed to compete with Zephyr than with Linux
- jtgans 4y ago
  TL from the project here: you are absolutely correct. KataOS is for embedded systems research, whereas Fuchsia is more of a batteries included system designed for consumer devices.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Does it use or work with with Rust's embedded-hal in some way? I'm not seeing mention of it on the initial website, so am guessing "no". :/
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Kukumber 4y ago
> Seems like there should have been a short explanation of why they didn't use it. They don't own you anything, specially when they use it already in their products and just recently announced a new product with it [1], so you are just using FUD at this point They mention: "Our team in Google Research" They have multiple R&D teams so and they are working multiple projects [1] - https://9to5google.com/2022/06/23/google-fuchsia-nest-hub-max/ https://9to5google.com/2022/06/23/google-fuchsia-nest-hub-ma...
- tyingq 4y ago
  >They don't own you anything It's not unusual when announcing a new product to explain where it fits in with the rest of the products and why it was needed.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    They just released a new product with Fuschia 2 months ago, they still use it, why do you insist with "they don't use it anymore" when it's just not true at all
    - tyingq 4y ago
      >why do you insist with "they don't use it anymore" Didn't say that. Where did you get that quote, "they don't use it anymore" ? I did say "why they didn't use it", meaning, "why didn't they use it for this specific use case?"

by tyingq 4y ago

Interesting that Fuchsia isn't mentioned, being capability based and having a microkernel. Seems like there should have been a short explanation of why they didn't use it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jeroenhd 4y ago

I think Fuchsia and KataOS server different purposes. If I read this announcement correctly, KataOS is aimed more at smart light bulbs and such whereas Fuchsia is aimed at relatively powerful devices with a UI (thermostats, smart clocks, etc.) or with significant processing capabilities (Google Home and other smart speakers). The Github page for Sparrow is counting RAM usage in megabytes with decimals, I don think Fuchsia will even run with less than 30MB of RAM. Their example for OOM events shows a device with 8GB of RAM, though I find it doubtful that even Google's hardware is that wasteful with system resources.

tyingq 4y ago
Ah, makes sense. I had seen the mention that the KataOS implementation is running on 64-bit ARM now in QEMU, which sounded more like Fuschia's space. Though those small devices are getting pretty big hardware these days, since it's cheap now. Some of the Nest thermostats have 512MB of RAM, and 2GB in the higher end Home hubs.
- Teknoman117 4y ago
  It's kinda nutty to me that my thermostat has more RAM than my Windows XP laptop did 20 years ago. Based on the function it serves I'm actually kind of appalled. It's a thermostat. You set the temperature and a schedule and it follows along. An ESP32 can do all the Wifi and Bluetooth connectivity you want with half a megabyte of RAM. Maybe you need a few megabytes for a framebuffer for the screen it has. But half a gigabyte?!
  - adave 4y ago
    Yeah a lot more goes into the Device than what you would expect. It's not some RTOS base hack-a-day kind of product.
  - IceWreck 4y ago
    Well if your thermostat or meeting room door sign runs an instance of chromium in kiosk mode to use HTML/CSS/JS for its UI then you need 2 gigabytes of RAM.
ksec 4y ago
>The Github page for Sparrow is counting RAM usage in megabytes with decimals, I had to look it up [1] and fact check this statement. Turns out it really is "megabytes with decimals". Amazing! [1] https://github.com/AmbiML/sparrow-manifest https://github.com/AmbiML/sparrow-manifest
pantalaimon 4y ago
So it’s more aimed to compete with Zephyr than with Linux
jtgans 4y ago
TL from the project here: you are absolutely correct. KataOS is for embedded systems research, whereas Fuchsia is more of a batteries included system designed for consumer devices.
- justinclift 4y ago
  Does it use or work with with Rust's embedded-hal in some way? I'm not seeing mention of it on the initial website, so am guessing "no". :/

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Kukumber 4y ago

> Seems like there should have been a short explanation of why they didn't use it. They don't own you anything, specially when they use it already in their products and just recently announced a new product with it [1], so you are just using FUD at this point They mention: "Our team in Google Research" They have multiple R&D teams so and they are working multiple projects [1] - https://9to5google.com/2022/06/23/google-fuchsia-nest-hub-max/ https://9to5google.com/2022/06/23/google-fuchsia-nest-hub-ma...

tyingq 4y ago
>They don't own you anything It's not unusual when announcing a new product to explain where it fits in with the rest of the products and why it was needed.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  They just released a new product with Fuschia 2 months ago, they still use it, why do you insist with "they don't use it anymore" when it's just not true at all
  - tyingq 4y ago
    >why do you insist with "they don't use it anymore" Didn't say that. Where did you get that quote, "they don't use it anymore" ? I did say "why they didn't use it", meaning, "why didn't they use it for this specific use case?"