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Htmx is not simply angular-style directives with client-side templates again. it is, rather, an extension of HTML as hypermedia. That's the big difference bet

Htmx is not simply angular-style directives with client-side templates again. it is, rather, an extension of HTML as hypermedia. That's the big difference between htmx and most other front end libraries. There are a number of essays here on this difference and the ramifications of it here: https://htmx.org/essays https://htmx.org/essays

hnbad 4y ago
Frankly, that page in itself is the reason my comment's tone is so hostile. There are fewer "essays" on that page than "memes" which just seem to exist to ridicule frontend frameworks or smear JS in general (which is ironic given that JS itself is a "twenty years old technology", which at least one of the memes frames as superior). I put "essays" in scare quotes as the first "essay" is literally the OP article, which is primarily a video of a conference talk. The rest of the collection mostly makes philosophical arguments that wax poetical about web architecture and mostly don't reference htmx by name so I can't be bothered to dig through all of them to figure out what you're trying to tell me. "An extension of HTML as hypermedia" is not a description of what it does, it's a grandiose sales pitch. I'm familiar with the original REST paper and a lot of the philosophizing around HATEOAS and hypermedia. It's not an "extension of HTML", it's a browser runtime implemented as a JavaScript library (assuming they didn't use WASM) that executes a declarative DSL in the form of non-standard HTML attributes (like Knockout, AngularJS 1, etc) and performs XHR requests to substitute fragments (like PJAX). I'm genuinely trying to understand what makes this novel or interesting but it's hard to tell between all the obnoxious dismissiveness towards frontend frameworks (and JS) and the grandiose use of academic buzzwords. EDIT: Thank you for pointing to that page though because at least it demonstrates that HTMX is the successor to Intercooler.js, a JS framework, which has a much less grandiose description of itself that doesn't need to appeal to philosophical blog posts or shitting on JavaScript to make its point: https://intercoolerjs.org/docs.html#philosophy https://intercoolerjs.org/docs.html#philosophy In fact, this Intercooler essay explicitly names PJAX as one of the examples of the tradition it tries to build on (while trying to stay true to the principles of HATEOAS and REST).
- recursivedoubts 4y ago
  it's always a tough balance: the reality is that htmx is hostile (or at least passive agressive :) towards JavaScript, as it is being used today. in general, I try to keep things positive and emphasize hypermedia over htmx, since it's the conceptual idea that I think is more important than htmx's implementation of it (libraries like unpoly or hotwire are also great options.) I do think htmx is more of an "extension of HTML" than those two, in that it is lower level and requires more work (or, if you prefer, has less magic) than them. the memes are what they are: it's the internet and i've gotten plenty of shit over the last decade from SPA partisans, so, at times, they are going to be a little punchy. I try not to take things personally and laugh about it all: the situation is hopeless, but not serious. the philosophical turn after I created htmx (really, intercooler 2.0) reflects that I have, over the last decade, developed a better understanding of hypermedia/REST/HATEOAS and why intercooler.js/htmx is different than SPA-talking-to-JSON-APIs. The essays certainly aren't for everyone, but I enjoy writing them and giving an alternative (and, I would argue, originalist) view of how web development can be done. tone is always hard on the internet and, broadly, I like Churchill's take: "I like a man who grins when he fights."

hnbad 4y ago

Frankly, that page in itself is the reason my comment's tone is so hostile. There are fewer "essays" on that page than "memes" which just seem to exist to ridicule frontend frameworks or smear JS in general (which is ironic given that JS itself is a "twenty years old technology", which at least one of the memes frames as superior). I put "essays" in scare quotes as the first "essay" is literally the OP article, which is primarily a video of a conference talk. The rest of the collection mostly makes philosophical arguments that wax poetical about web architecture and mostly don't reference htmx by name so I can't be bothered to dig through all of them to figure out what you're trying to tell me. "An extension of HTML as hypermedia" is not a description of what it does, it's a grandiose sales pitch. I'm familiar with the original REST paper and a lot of the philosophizing around HATEOAS and hypermedia. It's not an "extension of HTML", it's a browser runtime implemented as a JavaScript library (assuming they didn't use WASM) that executes a declarative DSL in the form of non-standard HTML attributes (like Knockout, AngularJS 1, etc) and performs XHR requests to substitute fragments (like PJAX). I'm genuinely trying to understand what makes this novel or interesting but it's hard to tell between all the obnoxious dismissiveness towards frontend frameworks (and JS) and the grandiose use of academic buzzwords. EDIT: Thank you for pointing to that page though because at least it demonstrates that HTMX is the successor to Intercooler.js, a JS framework, which has a much less grandiose description of itself that doesn't need to appeal to philosophical blog posts or shitting on JavaScript to make its point: https://intercoolerjs.org/docs.html#philosophy https://intercoolerjs.org/docs.html#philosophy In fact, this Intercooler essay explicitly names PJAX as one of the examples of the tradition it tries to build on (while trying to stay true to the principles of HATEOAS and REST).

recursivedoubts 4y ago
it's always a tough balance: the reality is that htmx is hostile (or at least passive agressive :) towards JavaScript, as it is being used today. in general, I try to keep things positive and emphasize hypermedia over htmx, since it's the conceptual idea that I think is more important than htmx's implementation of it (libraries like unpoly or hotwire are also great options.) I do think htmx is more of an "extension of HTML" than those two, in that it is lower level and requires more work (or, if you prefer, has less magic) than them. the memes are what they are: it's the internet and i've gotten plenty of shit over the last decade from SPA partisans, so, at times, they are going to be a little punchy. I try not to take things personally and laugh about it all: the situation is hopeless, but not serious. the philosophical turn after I created htmx (really, intercooler 2.0) reflects that I have, over the last decade, developed a better understanding of hypermedia/REST/HATEOAS and why intercooler.js/htmx is different than SPA-talking-to-JSON-APIs. The essays certainly aren't for everyone, but I enjoy writing them and giving an alternative (and, I would argue, originalist) view of how web development can be done. tone is always hard on the internet and, broadly, I like Churchill's take: "I like a man who grins when he fights."