4 ms·

> processed wheat makes you sick Does it? How? Are we assuming a diet with no other sources of fibre or vitamins?

bluGill 4y ago
The average American eats McDonald's once a week (or so i've read, I don't know how to verify), I know a fair number of people who are well under that, so a lot of people must be eating more often. There are a number of other fast food joints. If you get a varied diet you can have fast food once in a while, but it isn't very healthy alone.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  I used to work at a financial services company that served the unbanked. You could count on seeing a Wal-Mart trip followed by MacDonalds on every account--multiple times per week. Poor people eat garbage in the US.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Walmart is a cheap place to shop yeah? And I'm guessing Maccas is cheaper in the US than in my country?
chubot 4y ago
It obviously varies ... Kids seem to love it / thrive on it -- look at a typical 2 year old with mac and cheese or Costco pizza :) I think as adults people tend to not be able to metabolize that kind of diet. In populations, it repeatably causes a typical set of chronic diseases ("Western diet disease", obesity, diabetes, etc.). And there is more processed wheat/corn/rice in 2020 than there was in 1980, due to economic optimization. It's just harder to avoid So there was a trend away from carbs and bread in the last decade or 2, and those people could have also just avoided processed wheat / soft white bread of the type talked about in the original article. Carbs can be GOOD if they come from a good source, which the original article is talking about
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  > I think as adults people tend to not be able to metabolize that kind of diet. IIRC, it's like milk - if you're descended from a population where X was a staple, you're less likely to have issues digesting it, because that got selected out over the years. > In populations, it repeatably causes a typical set of chronic diseases ("Western diet disease", obesity, diabetes, etc.). Except a diet with excessive fat also correlates strongly to obesity and type 2 diabetes. Which makes sense, because insulin resistance is about how your body interacts with glucose, and every source of energy ultimately becomes glucose in your body. (And there's increased risk with high levels of triglycerides in your blood and low levels of HDL) > Carbs can be GOOD if they come from a good source, which the original article is talking about Carbs aren't good or bad, they're just a complex sugar. Yes, it's defibitely better if your source of carbohydrates also includes vitamins and fibre, but if you're eating sufficient vegetables, white bread or traditional Jordanian durum bread, it really makes no difference. And as our conversation has demonstrated, it's not just "white flour makes you sick". And everything is bad for you in excess. Try going to a Mongolian circa Chinggis Khaan diet where 40% of your inputs are protein (near the limits of protein dominant diet the human body can take) and you'll have great fun not shitting for a week, then shitting uncontrollably for a week or two. As Joe Rogan found out... So, I fully agree that gaining most of your energy from white bread is very bad for you, but I do not agree with the statement that "processed white flour makes you sick", as that requires so many caveats you'd need a conveyancing lawyer to sort through them all.
  - chubot 4y ago
    Yeah my original statement was overly strong -- I was really referring to the subset of people who already found that "carbs" make them sick, and contort their diets as a result. I believe the most salient issue, the most predictive one, for a wide range of health issues is food processing, due to economics. Comment thread from 20 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32979216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32979216 Especially this on why processing is the issue, and not a particular macronutrient: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32987219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32987219 But I also do think that there is a very typical "Western diet" that causes chronic diseases, and it contains a lot of processed wheat (and corn). The comment in this thread about the receipts of going to Walmart and then McDonald's is exactly what I'm talking about. (And it's just sad that people don't have more options; they live in food deserts.) Except a diet with excessive fat also correlates strongly to obesity and type 2 diabetes. I believe it's processed fat! i.e. there is a huge difference between 1) a pure white chicken breast with all the natural fat dried out of it, frozen and unfrozen, and then smothered in mayo (every fast food franchise sells some version of this) 2) a chicken cooked in its own fat The latter has nutrients that the former doesn't. You have to eat more calories of the former to feel full
garren 4y ago
White wheat flour has a higher glycemic index than table sugar[0]. High GI foods can lead to blood sugar spikes, potentially to ”impaired insulin sensitivity” [1], and a host of related health problems. Diabetes, obesity, etc. In a sense it’s worse than refined white sugar for many, if not most, people. Particularly those living a more sedentary lifestyle. If you subscribe to the notion that sugar is poison[2][3], then highly refined, processed, wheat flour is also poison. [0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glycemic-index-and-glycemic-load-for-100-foods https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glyce... [1] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22206-insulin-resistance https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22206-insulin... [2] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/06/104177/sugar-poison-says-ucsf-obesity-expert https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/06/104177/sugar-poison-says-u... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM (see 35-39min)
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Okay, your first link states that potatoes and white rice also have a higher GI than sucrose, which makes sense, as they'd have a more complex set of sugars when cooked as the starch chains break down. Meanwhile, pasta made from white flour has a lower GI than white bread, but also lower than sucrose. Which also makes sense, as bread has sugar added to it as part of the baking process, and also to enhance consumer uptake in certain markets. (US bread contains more added sugar than bread in my country). So, this leads me to a clarifying question or two: 1) What is the incidence of type 2 diabetes in Italy and SE Asia? Given the prevalence of pasta in the former, and rice in the latter. 2) In your country, is white bread really the main source of daily carbohydrates? I totally agree that eating huge amounts of refined carbohydrates is unhealthy, but I haven't seen anything here that shows that white flour as a part of a balanced diet will inherently make you sick.
  - adrian_b 4y ago
    I agree with you. The glycemic index from that table just shows that a certain kind of white wheat bread is digested faster than pure sucrose, but slower than boiled potatoes. The effect of any food that contains starch or sugar depends not only on the glycemic index, but also on the ingested amount. Moreover, the effect of eating bread depends on the other food that is ingested at the same time, which will slow down the digestion and lower the glycemic index in comparison with eating just bread alone, without anything else. Sweet food with high sugar content is much more likely to be eaten alone than bread. While the digestion speed for any pure sugar or for boiled potatoes or rice is about the same for any kind of sugar, potatoes or rice, there is a huge number of varieties of bread, which are digested at different rates and which have different glycemic indexes. From a table like that it is not possible to know what kind of bread has been tested. For example, I make at home a special kind of bread with very high protein content (about 40% protein, while the commercial breads have less than 10% protein). It is made using only white wheat flour and water, but the dough is washed to remove about 75% of the starch, enriching the dough in gluten. I can bet that such a white wheat bread has a glycemic index much lower than sucrose.
mnd999 4y ago
It’s a standard hacker news BS generalisation, presenting something with some basis in truth as universally true.

The average American eats McDonald's once a week (or so i've read, I don't know how to verify), I know a fair number of people who are well under that, so a lot of people must be eating more often. There are a number of other fast food joints. If you get a varied diet you can have fast food once in a while, but it isn't very healthy alone.

datavirtue 4y ago
I used to work at a financial services company that served the unbanked. You could count on seeing a Wal-Mart trip followed by MacDonalds on every account--multiple times per week. Poor people eat garbage in the US.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Walmart is a cheap place to shop yeah? And I'm guessing Maccas is cheaper in the US than in my country?

chubot 4y ago

It obviously varies ... Kids seem to love it / thrive on it -- look at a typical 2 year old with mac and cheese or Costco pizza :) I think as adults people tend to not be able to metabolize that kind of diet. In populations, it repeatably causes a typical set of chronic diseases ("Western diet disease", obesity, diabetes, etc.). And there is more processed wheat/corn/rice in 2020 than there was in 1980, due to economic optimization. It's just harder to avoid So there was a trend away from carbs and bread in the last decade or 2, and those people could have also just avoided processed wheat / soft white bread of the type talked about in the original article. Carbs can be GOOD if they come from a good source, which the original article is talking about

EdwardDiego 4y ago
> I think as adults people tend to not be able to metabolize that kind of diet. IIRC, it's like milk - if you're descended from a population where X was a staple, you're less likely to have issues digesting it, because that got selected out over the years. > In populations, it repeatably causes a typical set of chronic diseases ("Western diet disease", obesity, diabetes, etc.). Except a diet with excessive fat also correlates strongly to obesity and type 2 diabetes. Which makes sense, because insulin resistance is about how your body interacts with glucose, and every source of energy ultimately becomes glucose in your body. (And there's increased risk with high levels of triglycerides in your blood and low levels of HDL) > Carbs can be GOOD if they come from a good source, which the original article is talking about Carbs aren't good or bad, they're just a complex sugar. Yes, it's defibitely better if your source of carbohydrates also includes vitamins and fibre, but if you're eating sufficient vegetables, white bread or traditional Jordanian durum bread, it really makes no difference. And as our conversation has demonstrated, it's not just "white flour makes you sick". And everything is bad for you in excess. Try going to a Mongolian circa Chinggis Khaan diet where 40% of your inputs are protein (near the limits of protein dominant diet the human body can take) and you'll have great fun not shitting for a week, then shitting uncontrollably for a week or two. As Joe Rogan found out... So, I fully agree that gaining most of your energy from white bread is very bad for you, but I do not agree with the statement that "processed white flour makes you sick", as that requires so many caveats you'd need a conveyancing lawyer to sort through them all.
- chubot 4y ago
  Yeah my original statement was overly strong -- I was really referring to the subset of people who already found that "carbs" make them sick, and contort their diets as a result. I believe the most salient issue, the most predictive one, for a wide range of health issues is food processing, due to economics. Comment thread from 20 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32979216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32979216 Especially this on why processing is the issue, and not a particular macronutrient: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32987219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32987219 But I also do think that there is a very typical "Western diet" that causes chronic diseases, and it contains a lot of processed wheat (and corn). The comment in this thread about the receipts of going to Walmart and then McDonald's is exactly what I'm talking about. (And it's just sad that people don't have more options; they live in food deserts.) Except a diet with excessive fat also correlates strongly to obesity and type 2 diabetes. I believe it's processed fat! i.e. there is a huge difference between 1) a pure white chicken breast with all the natural fat dried out of it, frozen and unfrozen, and then smothered in mayo (every fast food franchise sells some version of this) 2) a chicken cooked in its own fat The latter has nutrients that the former doesn't. You have to eat more calories of the former to feel full

garren 4y ago

White wheat flour has a higher glycemic index than table sugar[0]. High GI foods can lead to blood sugar spikes, potentially to ”impaired insulin sensitivity” [1], and a host of related health problems. Diabetes, obesity, etc. In a sense it’s worse than refined white sugar for many, if not most, people. Particularly those living a more sedentary lifestyle. If you subscribe to the notion that sugar is poison[2][3], then highly refined, processed, wheat flour is also poison. [0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glycemic-index-and-glycemic-load-for-100-foods https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glyce... [1] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22206-insulin-resistance https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22206-insulin... [2] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/06/104177/sugar-poison-says-ucsf-obesity-expert https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/06/104177/sugar-poison-says-u... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM (see 35-39min)

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Okay, your first link states that potatoes and white rice also have a higher GI than sucrose, which makes sense, as they'd have a more complex set of sugars when cooked as the starch chains break down. Meanwhile, pasta made from white flour has a lower GI than white bread, but also lower than sucrose. Which also makes sense, as bread has sugar added to it as part of the baking process, and also to enhance consumer uptake in certain markets. (US bread contains more added sugar than bread in my country). So, this leads me to a clarifying question or two: 1) What is the incidence of type 2 diabetes in Italy and SE Asia? Given the prevalence of pasta in the former, and rice in the latter. 2) In your country, is white bread really the main source of daily carbohydrates? I totally agree that eating huge amounts of refined carbohydrates is unhealthy, but I haven't seen anything here that shows that white flour as a part of a balanced diet will inherently make you sick.
- adrian_b 4y ago
  I agree with you. The glycemic index from that table just shows that a certain kind of white wheat bread is digested faster than pure sucrose, but slower than boiled potatoes. The effect of any food that contains starch or sugar depends not only on the glycemic index, but also on the ingested amount. Moreover, the effect of eating bread depends on the other food that is ingested at the same time, which will slow down the digestion and lower the glycemic index in comparison with eating just bread alone, without anything else. Sweet food with high sugar content is much more likely to be eaten alone than bread. While the digestion speed for any pure sugar or for boiled potatoes or rice is about the same for any kind of sugar, potatoes or rice, there is a huge number of varieties of bread, which are digested at different rates and which have different glycemic indexes. From a table like that it is not possible to know what kind of bread has been tested. For example, I make at home a special kind of bread with very high protein content (about 40% protein, while the commercial breads have less than 10% protein). It is made using only white wheat flour and water, but the dough is washed to remove about 75% of the starch, enriching the dough in gluten. I can bet that such a white wheat bread has a glycemic index much lower than sucrose.

mnd999 4y ago

It’s a standard hacker news BS generalisation, presenting something with some basis in truth as universally true.