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The hoops people will jump through to avoid learning HTML/CSS/JS. I say this as a Python/Django dev who resisted learning web tech for 20 years: It's time to ju

The hoops people will jump through to avoid learning HTML/CSS/JS. I say this as a Python/Django dev who resisted learning web tech for 20 years: It's time to just learn this stuff. You can slap on a mound of band-aids and watch the wound bleed forever. Or, you can go in, get three stitches, suffer a little pain, and let the healing process begin.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
recursivedoubts 4y ago
I think this take does yourself a disservice: htmx is an extension of HTML and, in general, of the hypermedia model, and it is this model that should be contrasted with JSON data APIs. I think that you should learn JavaScript, and I certainly think you should learn HTML(!!!) and CSS. But I also think you should consider how much more can be achieved in a pure hypermedia model with the (relatively small) extensions to HTML that htmx gives you. I have a collection of essays on this topic here: https://htmx.org/essays/ https://htmx.org/essays/ Including an essay on how I feel scripting should be done in Hypermedia Driven Application: https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-driven-applications/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-driven-applications/ There is more to all this than simply avoiding JavaScript.
- miiiiiike 4y ago
  I’ve used htmx.
  - recursivedoubts 4y ago
    I'm sure you have. Regardless of that, the idea that you learn htmx because don't want you to learn JavaScript is simply incorrect. Rather, it's how you use JavaScript that should be considered.
    - miiiiiike 4y ago
      JSON APIs are usable beyond the browser and using htmx feels like using Django+jQuery 14 years ago. I'd rather not go back to that.
      - recursivedoubts 4y ago
        cool cool https://htmx.org/essays/splitting-your-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/splitting-your-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-apis-vs-data-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-apis-vs-data-apis/
        miiiiiike 4y ago
        Passive aggressively posting links to overlong tracts won't change my mind. I've read all of it and I fundamentally disagree with it. I'm happy to be done with this.. Unless, of course, you feel that you need the last word? Or, can we let this go and move on? Yeah?
        recursivedoubts 4y ago
        All of it? ;)
        miiiiiike 4y ago
        Have I read what you’ve posted in this thread? Yes. And more when I was learning to use htmx. I gave it a good-faith effort and I’m completely unconvinced. If we were having this conversation ten years ago, I might be excited. Today, not so much.
bsder 4y ago
The problem is that you don't "learn Javascript". The problem is that you need a whole ecosystem to do anything useful and that ecosystem is highly fractured and never seems to converge. One of the bullet points was "They reduced their total JS dependencies by 96% (255 to 9)". That's an enormous support burden that simply vaporized.
- miiiiiike 4y ago
  'The problem is that you don't "learn (Python|Rust|Ruby|C++|Go)". The problem is that you need a whole ecosystem to do anything useful and that ecosystem is highly fractured and never seems to converge.' My virtualenv has close to a hundred deps. Tried packaging anything in Python lately? How about type checking? It's the same everywhere, the grass just looks patchier when it's not a park you're used to going to. There are over seven billion people on this planet, convergence of opinion is the exception.
  - bsder 4y ago
    If you are deploying to Django, you've likely converged to a specific set of Python dependencies that have been pretty static for close to a decade. I'd be surprised if my Django virtualenv has ever had more than 20 dependencies.
    - miiiiiike 4y ago
      The whole of the Django community has not converged on the same deps. Same with JavaScript. With Python/Django there's uWSGI vs. Gunicorn vs. etc, etc, etc. Then there's ASGI with Uvicorn vs. Daphne vs. Hypercorn. That's just running your code. Nothing is one-size fits all.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

recursivedoubts 4y ago

I think this take does yourself a disservice: htmx is an extension of HTML and, in general, of the hypermedia model, and it is this model that should be contrasted with JSON data APIs. I think that you should learn JavaScript, and I certainly think you should learn HTML(!!!) and CSS. But I also think you should consider how much more can be achieved in a pure hypermedia model with the (relatively small) extensions to HTML that htmx gives you. I have a collection of essays on this topic here: https://htmx.org/essays/ https://htmx.org/essays/ Including an essay on how I feel scripting should be done in Hypermedia Driven Application: https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-driven-applications/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-driven-applications/ There is more to all this than simply avoiding JavaScript.

miiiiiike 4y ago
I’ve used htmx.
- recursivedoubts 4y ago
  I'm sure you have. Regardless of that, the idea that you learn htmx because don't want you to learn JavaScript is simply incorrect. Rather, it's how you use JavaScript that should be considered.
  - miiiiiike 4y ago
    JSON APIs are usable beyond the browser and using htmx feels like using Django+jQuery 14 years ago. I'd rather not go back to that.
    - recursivedoubts 4y ago
      cool cool https://htmx.org/essays/splitting-your-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/splitting-your-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-apis-vs-data-apis/ https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-apis-vs-data-apis/
      - miiiiiike 4y ago
        Passive aggressively posting links to overlong tracts won't change my mind. I've read all of it and I fundamentally disagree with it. I'm happy to be done with this.. Unless, of course, you feel that you need the last word? Or, can we let this go and move on? Yeah?
        recursivedoubts 4y ago
        All of it? ;)
        miiiiiike 4y ago
        Have I read what you’ve posted in this thread? Yes. And more when I was learning to use htmx. I gave it a good-faith effort and I’m completely unconvinced. If we were having this conversation ten years ago, I might be excited. Today, not so much.

bsder 4y ago

The problem is that you don't "learn Javascript". The problem is that you need a whole ecosystem to do anything useful and that ecosystem is highly fractured and never seems to converge. One of the bullet points was "They reduced their total JS dependencies by 96% (255 to 9)". That's an enormous support burden that simply vaporized.

miiiiiike 4y ago
'The problem is that you don't "learn (Python|Rust|Ruby|C++|Go)". The problem is that you need a whole ecosystem to do anything useful and that ecosystem is highly fractured and never seems to converge.' My virtualenv has close to a hundred deps. Tried packaging anything in Python lately? How about type checking? It's the same everywhere, the grass just looks patchier when it's not a park you're used to going to. There are over seven billion people on this planet, convergence of opinion is the exception.
- bsder 4y ago
  If you are deploying to Django, you've likely converged to a specific set of Python dependencies that have been pretty static for close to a decade. I'd be surprised if my Django virtualenv has ever had more than 20 dependencies.
  - miiiiiike 4y ago
    The whole of the Django community has not converged on the same deps. Same with JavaScript. With Python/Django there's uWSGI vs. Gunicorn vs. etc, etc, etc. Then there's ASGI with Uvicorn vs. Daphne vs. Hypercorn. That's just running your code. Nothing is one-size fits all.