7 ms·

It helps if you understand whether the person is defending their own values, or their group's values. If you talk someone out of their group's values, you migh

It helps if you understand whether the person is defending their own values, or their group's values. If you talk someone out of their group's values, you might destroy their entire life. Talking someone out of their religion is a "win" until they get shunned and lose everything they have. Are you still in the right then? What does the "objective truth" matter if you're just ruining peoples lives? Change someone's mind on guns or abortion and you hurt them! It doesn't matter which side they start on or which side you convince them to. You're ripping and tearing at the very fabric of their social life. Some people are unable to change their minds, but some people can't change their minds due to circumstance. It's really important to understand this before convincing anyone of anything.

nuancebydefault 4y ago
Even if you persuaded them into changing their mind on a topic intertwined with their identity or the group they are part of, can it not be that it is for the better and, ultimately for their own benifit?
RobertoG 4y ago
Great comment. I suspect that we all are vulnerable to Stockholm syndrome and doing the calculation of what price we will pay for changing our mind. After all, surviving is more important than being right.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benkamin Franklin Liberty includes the ability to offer convincing arguments to anyone who may listen.
  - kyleyeats 4y ago
    "Freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness." - Viktor Frankl Liberty without responsibility is a big pile of hot garbage. If you exercise the liberty you're talking about, you also need to at the same time exercise the responsibility I'm talking about.
    - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
      The path to responsibility can't be chains
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    this quote says nothing about being right or false. totally irrelevant to the point at hand.
coffeeblack 4y ago
Or they may even lose their job at WaPo or the Atlantic! ;)
- rybosome 4y ago
  We are all, regardless of the direction of our political leaning, suspended in our beliefs by the community we are part of. If you don’t believe me, I encourage you to try walking down Main Street in small town America with a BLM flag. It’ll be received about as well as parading a Trump 2024 flag around a coastal city.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    I visited a small town recently - Ithaca. As someone from San Francisco I was shocked by the amount of LGBTQ and BLM imagery. Feels like everyone in SF kinda takes it as the default position, no need to show off.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      Ithaca, NY is a college town with a top-tier university and is located in Tompkins county which went 73.5% for Biden in 2020. It happens to be a small town, but I don't know that I'd consider it representative of small town America.
    - pempem 4y ago
      Ah Ithaca is so tremendously close to my heart. It is also a liberal college town with all of the externalization that can invoke. You only need to head to Oswego, or Genesee county generally to find a lot of upstate NY conservatism, often similarly openly shared.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      everyone needs to show off their propaganda posters like in the good old ussr
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
pempem 4y ago
Certainly you jest... If we apply this kind of belief to corporations/government/etc. we get the things that most folks at HN spend their non-tech comments complaining about. Entrenched power, inability to pursue effectiveness because "this is how its always been done" and a lot of fluff. You are not ruining people's lives by sharing reasoning to change someone's values. You are not destroying their lives because simply talking to someone is not forcing them to accept and implement something. Their community is not flexible enough to incorporate differing beliefs and thus not long destined for this world. Take for example, Christianity. It comes in more flavors than ice cream, and infighting occurs but is rare in the face of conversations that pit Muslims or 'heathen religions' against Christianity. flexibility Or take Hindu social society which is literally the oldest surviving widespread religion + social group that continuously assimilates different beliefs from different pagan religions bending so far that Hindus now celebrate Valentines and Xmas Day without invalidating a single belief. The party "destroying lives" is not the party that posits a new way of thinking.
- JamesianP 4y ago
  It's a question of moral responsibility. If you cause someone to make a major change in their life, surely you'd agree that you bear at least part of the responsibility for the outcome. It's the same with changing govt. Doesn't necessarily mean the only choice is doing nothing. But that you must weigh outcomes realistically, not idealistically.
  - BobbyJo 4y ago
    I have to disagree with this point in this context. "Changing someone's mind" is a collaborative act. If you change someone's mind about something important, they are more responsible for the change than you are, because they have more power than you over the change. You don't own the beliefs of others. Share information when you have it. Maximize peoples' opportunities to hold informed beliefs.
    - tacitusarc 4y ago
      It’s sounds like you simply misread the comment you replied to, and the two of you agree.
anyonecancode 4y ago
I don't know about being "in the right" or not, but I do think this comment is correct in showing why it can be difficult, if not impossible, for some people to change their minds. I experienced this in my own family in regards to covid, which made for some very stressful discussions around masking and behavior when we gathered for the holidays during the pandemic. I live in one part of the country, where certain behaviors and beliefs around that were baseline assumptions, some of my siblings in a different part of the country, with the opposite baselines. To change minds would mean going against what all your friends, neighbors, colleagues, etc believed. It would mean pretty significant social distancing, unrelated to the pandemic. We all were able to work out some measure of compromise for the duration of the visit, but, well, there's reasons we live where we live and not in the same place.
adrianN 4y ago
It's all fine an dandy until objectively false group beliefs start affecting, e.g., political policy that has an effect on everybody, not just believers.

nuancebydefault 4y ago

Even if you persuaded them into changing their mind on a topic intertwined with their identity or the group they are part of, can it not be that it is for the better and, ultimately for their own benifit?

RobertoG 4y ago

Great comment. I suspect that we all are vulnerable to Stockholm syndrome and doing the calculation of what price we will pay for changing our mind. After all, surviving is more important than being right.

MichaelZuo 4y ago
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benkamin Franklin Liberty includes the ability to offer convincing arguments to anyone who may listen.
- kyleyeats 4y ago
  "Freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness." - Viktor Frankl Liberty without responsibility is a big pile of hot garbage. If you exercise the liberty you're talking about, you also need to at the same time exercise the responsibility I'm talking about.
  - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
    The path to responsibility can't be chains
- ekianjo 4y ago
  this quote says nothing about being right or false. totally irrelevant to the point at hand.

coffeeblack 4y ago

Or they may even lose their job at WaPo or the Atlantic! ;)

rybosome 4y ago
We are all, regardless of the direction of our political leaning, suspended in our beliefs by the community we are part of. If you don’t believe me, I encourage you to try walking down Main Street in small town America with a BLM flag. It’ll be received about as well as parading a Trump 2024 flag around a coastal city.
- Swizec 4y ago
  I visited a small town recently - Ithaca. As someone from San Francisco I was shocked by the amount of LGBTQ and BLM imagery. Feels like everyone in SF kinda takes it as the default position, no need to show off.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    Ithaca, NY is a college town with a top-tier university and is located in Tompkins county which went 73.5% for Biden in 2020. It happens to be a small town, but I don't know that I'd consider it representative of small town America.
  - pempem 4y ago
    Ah Ithaca is so tremendously close to my heart. It is also a liberal college town with all of the externalization that can invoke. You only need to head to Oswego, or Genesee county generally to find a lot of upstate NY conservatism, often similarly openly shared.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    everyone needs to show off their propaganda posters like in the good old ussr
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

pempem 4y ago

Certainly you jest... If we apply this kind of belief to corporations/government/etc. we get the things that most folks at HN spend their non-tech comments complaining about. Entrenched power, inability to pursue effectiveness because "this is how its always been done" and a lot of fluff. You are not ruining people's lives by sharing reasoning to change someone's values. You are not destroying their lives because simply talking to someone is not forcing them to accept and implement something. Their community is not flexible enough to incorporate differing beliefs and thus not long destined for this world. Take for example, Christianity. It comes in more flavors than ice cream, and infighting occurs but is rare in the face of conversations that pit Muslims or 'heathen religions' against Christianity. flexibility Or take Hindu social society which is literally the oldest surviving widespread religion + social group that continuously assimilates different beliefs from different pagan religions bending so far that Hindus now celebrate Valentines and Xmas Day without invalidating a single belief. The party "destroying lives" is not the party that posits a new way of thinking.

JamesianP 4y ago
It's a question of moral responsibility. If you cause someone to make a major change in their life, surely you'd agree that you bear at least part of the responsibility for the outcome. It's the same with changing govt. Doesn't necessarily mean the only choice is doing nothing. But that you must weigh outcomes realistically, not idealistically.
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  I have to disagree with this point in this context. "Changing someone's mind" is a collaborative act. If you change someone's mind about something important, they are more responsible for the change than you are, because they have more power than you over the change. You don't own the beliefs of others. Share information when you have it. Maximize peoples' opportunities to hold informed beliefs.
  - tacitusarc 4y ago
    It’s sounds like you simply misread the comment you replied to, and the two of you agree.

anyonecancode 4y ago

I don't know about being "in the right" or not, but I do think this comment is correct in showing why it can be difficult, if not impossible, for some people to change their minds. I experienced this in my own family in regards to covid, which made for some very stressful discussions around masking and behavior when we gathered for the holidays during the pandemic. I live in one part of the country, where certain behaviors and beliefs around that were baseline assumptions, some of my siblings in a different part of the country, with the opposite baselines. To change minds would mean going against what all your friends, neighbors, colleagues, etc believed. It would mean pretty significant social distancing, unrelated to the pandemic. We all were able to work out some measure of compromise for the duration of the visit, but, well, there's reasons we live where we live and not in the same place.

adrianN 4y ago

It's all fine an dandy until objectively false group beliefs start affecting, e.g., political policy that has an effect on everybody, not just believers.