7 ms·

I find it strange that this article presumes that you have all the right answers and that there isn't the possibility that you are the one who needs their mind

I find it strange that this article presumes that you have all the right answers and that there isn't the possibility that you are the one who needs their mind changed. It points out that listening is valuable, but not because there's a possibility that the person you're talking to is in the right, no, you should listen to other people because studies show that listening to other people will manipulate them into seeing things your way. I feel like if you really wanted to live in a world of open-minded people, you should probably start by being open-minded yourself. Here's a good trick I picked up for discussing contentious things - if you're ever tempted to dish out a sick burn, try to rephrase the point into a genuine question. Then the other person will have to walk through the logic of it, and if it turns out there is a real logic to their side of things, you don't get your ego bruised, cause you just asked a genuine question.

dr_dshiv 4y ago
> if you're ever tempted to dish out a sick burn, try to rephrase the point into a genuine question Can you give an example?
- phailhaus 4y ago
  Great example!
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    Ok, but now I want the sick burn
    - rickdicker 4y ago
      Something like instead of saying "well more people die of the flu every year than die of COVID!" you would ask "how do you think the severity of this disease compares to other things we deal with, like the flu?"
- Nition 4y ago
  "The government's using COVID as a means of population control." "Why does the government want a lower population - don't they usually want more people to grow the economy?"
  - lupire 4y ago
    Easy: "They want to get rid of Black people on welfare." As is said, you can't reason someone out of a idea they didn't reason themselves into.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - tmn 4y ago
    I think the typical response to that question would be something like ‘The Davos crowd sees current consumption rates as unsustainable and want a lower population. Bill gates has videos talking about the imperative to reduce global population by coercing a lower birth rate.’ https://youtu.be/obRG-2jurz0 https://youtu.be/obRG-2jurz0 Note. I do think the above davos thing is true. I personally do not think Covid was intentionally introduced. But the quip on gdp growth is a good question as it highlights the asker does not understand the basic framework of the other side. And understanding the other side is the realistic goal of these discussions as a prerequisite to arriving at synthesis.
  - Vinnl 4y ago
    Heh, this reminds me of the one time I was able to have a short conversation with someone who I found out believed the Twin Tower attacks to be an inside job. I asked them what the motivation for doing so would be, and the reply was "it's all about the money, man!" Didn't quite know what to do with that, though unfortunately that was also about at the point I had to catch a train.
kyleyeats 4y ago
It helps if you understand whether the person is defending their own values, or their group's values. If you talk someone out of their group's values, you might destroy their entire life. Talking someone out of their religion is a "win" until they get shunned and lose everything they have. Are you still in the right then? What does the "objective truth" matter if you're just ruining peoples lives? Change someone's mind on guns or abortion and you hurt them! It doesn't matter which side they start on or which side you convince them to. You're ripping and tearing at the very fabric of their social life. Some people are unable to change their minds, but some people can't change their minds due to circumstance. It's really important to understand this before convincing anyone of anything.
- nuancebydefault 4y ago
  Even if you persuaded them into changing their mind on a topic intertwined with their identity or the group they are part of, can it not be that it is for the better and, ultimately for their own benifit?
- RobertoG 4y ago
  Great comment. I suspect that we all are vulnerable to Stockholm syndrome and doing the calculation of what price we will pay for changing our mind. After all, surviving is more important than being right.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benkamin Franklin Liberty includes the ability to offer convincing arguments to anyone who may listen.
    - kyleyeats 4y ago
      "Freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness." - Viktor Frankl Liberty without responsibility is a big pile of hot garbage. If you exercise the liberty you're talking about, you also need to at the same time exercise the responsibility I'm talking about.
nuancebydefault 4y ago
> listening... will manipulate them... I also read in the article that you should listen in a genuine way. Would it be possible that this act could change your own mind? Would that fit your definition of being open-minded?
danhak 4y ago
On the contrary, the article concludes on this note: > But if I truly have the good of the world at heart, then I must not fall prey to the conceit of perfect knowledge, and must be willing to entertain new and better ways to serve my ultimate goal: creating a happier world.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  That means a lot less as a postscript than as the starting point. Whereas the framing of your values as a "gift" doesn't absolutely imply they're correct, but does imply they're somehow a good thing. There's a phrase we use for saying the right words about an important idea but not actually incorporating it into your methods: "lip service".
  - another_story 4y ago
    Do you hold any values that you don't think are a good thing? It seems as if the author is coming from the perspective that you hold these values rather close and are already willing to defend them. In those cases isn't it better to come off as offering something to a conversation as opposed to dictating what is correct? Also, in a sense, offering up something for consideration already carries with it a sense that you're willing to discuss its terms.
    - andrewflnr 4y ago
      > Do you hold any values that you don't think are a good thing? No, but I could be wrong, and I'm a dangerous fool if I don't take that into account. > offering up something for consideration already carries with it a sense that you're willing to discuss its terms. In some idealized world of intelligent good faith discussions, maybe. In practice, false, not even close. A good idea for yourself, but not safe to assume of anyone else's motives even if they say that's how they operate, much less if they call their ideas a "gift".
      - another_story 4y ago
        I think all the author is saying is to do it yourself, not that we should be naive and assume others are doing the same. You can always give people the benefit of the doubt first, and adjust.
xani_ 4y ago
> Here's a good trick I picked up for discussing contentious things - if you're ever tempted to dish out a sick burn, try to rephrase the point into a genuine question. Then the other person will have to walk through the logic of it, and if it turns out there is a real logic to their side of things, you don't get your ego bruised, cause you just asked a genuine question. And if it doesn't they can figure it out and have a way to fuck off without losing face too much
skyfaller 4y ago
This is a "trick" that Socrates was famous for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning Many of his contemporaries hated his guts and ultimately they condemned him to death. It may be a good way to keep an open mind, but it may also be a terrible way to make friends and influence people.
- etherael 4y ago
  I think it's because the political process is all about getting people into groups where they can thus cooperate with each other as an economic bloc, a perfect lie is the optimal unifying concept in this model; something that pulls everybody together into the same single political structure. If on the other hand all you care about is the truth, you're directly corrosive to the above. You're looking at all the edge cases where the lie breaks down, and worse yet you're spreading disintegration of the otherwise unified political bloc by infecting other agents with your same methods. It's a matter of perspective which side is "right", because those resultant atomised and fractured political blocs that can no longer bring themselves to accept the beautiful lie that otherwise would have successfully united them are now competitive rather than cooperative, and the game gradually slips closer to zero sum with the bloc most closely pursuing the optimal strategy in the light of the cold hard cynical truth winning out at the direct expense of all the other groups, and the resulting accelerating wealth inequality that implies, having real concrete negative effects on the lives of all those people in the suboptimal factions that frankly they may never have even had a chance to join letalone have been made aware of the existence of any alternatives because of the nature of their worldviews. Is it "right" to pursue truth even if it makes the quality of life of billions much worse? It's a frightening and enlightening thing to sit down with an ideologue and come to understand not just what they think, but how they got to think that way. The common thread I have found is that default worldviews are both extremely sticky and subject to almost no critical analysis by the people that hold them, and unifying the galaxy of irrational but widely held default worldviews that exist flatly requires extensive narrative manipulation and outright lying, and that lying and manipulation is what politics actually is. Imho this is why widespread censorship has gone from intolerable anathema to the sine qua non for the existence of the dominant shared mass hallucination about the state of the world in just a few short decades. Like it or not, politics has won out soundly over truth past a certain social scale. Disclaimer; acknowledging reality is not approving of it. Socrates was right and should have beeen feeding his prosecutors hemlock, not the other way around. Damn the consequences and embrace the truth, whatever the outcome has always been my view. I just also know that view is extremely unpopular today.
halffaday 4y ago
chiefalchemist 4y ago
You raise an interesting question: Does the right-leaning media publish the same type of articles? And if not, what type of "conflict resolution" content do they publish instead?
spangry 4y ago
> I find it strange that this article presumes that you have all the right answers and that there isn't the possibility that you are the one who needs their mind changed. It points out that listening is valuable, but not because there's a possibility that the person you're talking to is in the right, no, you should listen to other people because studies show that listening to other people will manipulate them into seeing things your way. Perhaps the article is being devious here. It's not easy for people to separate intentions and actions - sometimes an intention can form to rationalise a preceding action (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect). Even though your initial intention may be to manipulate by appearing to genuinely listen, you may end up just genuinely listening and rationalising that this was your intent all along. This line of reasoning could trick the most ardent zealots into accidentally genuinely listening to their enemies' point of view. Relatedly, I think another effective persuasive technique is 'seeding'. If you can engineer a 'non-defensive' conversation with your opponent in which you seed one or two critical thoughts in their mind, although they won't be instantaneously persuaded the seeds can germinate into full persuasion later on. However, this technique requires avoidance of confrontational behaviours that cause your opponent to activate their mental defenses.
ledauphin 4y ago
Do you think the author might have written it with that 'presumption' intentionally? I'd guess that the author is trying to, as gently as possible, suggest to people that there are better ways to go about thinking about those with whom you disagree, _regardless_ of who is right or wrong. Which is really a different point than "you should be less certain about your beliefs."
Vinnl 4y ago
To me it felt like the article lured you in pretending to be a guide on how to change other people's minds, but the arguments seem to involve that you can only do so by being open to having your own mind change. I mean, I scrolled back up to the title - "A Gentler, Better Way to Change Minds" - and note that it doesn't even mention other people's minds; it could refer to changing your own mind as well. Point two is about being OK with your point of view being rejected, and point three about considering the other person's point of view. And then the conclusion is: > But if I truly have the good of the world at heart, then I must not fall prey to the conceit of perfect knowledge, and must be willing to entertain new and better ways to serve my ultimate goal: creating a happier world. Launching a rhetorical grenade might give me a little satisfaction and earn me a few attaboys on social media from those who share my views, but generosity and openness have a bigger chance of making the world better in the long run.

dr_dshiv 4y ago

> if you're ever tempted to dish out a sick burn, try to rephrase the point into a genuine question Can you give an example?

phailhaus 4y ago
Great example!
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Ok, but now I want the sick burn
  - rickdicker 4y ago
    Something like instead of saying "well more people die of the flu every year than die of COVID!" you would ask "how do you think the severity of this disease compares to other things we deal with, like the flu?"
Nition 4y ago
"The government's using COVID as a means of population control." "Why does the government want a lower population - don't they usually want more people to grow the economy?"
- lupire 4y ago
  Easy: "They want to get rid of Black people on welfare." As is said, you can't reason someone out of a idea they didn't reason themselves into.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- tmn 4y ago
  I think the typical response to that question would be something like ‘The Davos crowd sees current consumption rates as unsustainable and want a lower population. Bill gates has videos talking about the imperative to reduce global population by coercing a lower birth rate.’ https://youtu.be/obRG-2jurz0 https://youtu.be/obRG-2jurz0 Note. I do think the above davos thing is true. I personally do not think Covid was intentionally introduced. But the quip on gdp growth is a good question as it highlights the asker does not understand the basic framework of the other side. And understanding the other side is the realistic goal of these discussions as a prerequisite to arriving at synthesis.
- Vinnl 4y ago
  Heh, this reminds me of the one time I was able to have a short conversation with someone who I found out believed the Twin Tower attacks to be an inside job. I asked them what the motivation for doing so would be, and the reply was "it's all about the money, man!" Didn't quite know what to do with that, though unfortunately that was also about at the point I had to catch a train.

kyleyeats 4y ago

It helps if you understand whether the person is defending their own values, or their group's values. If you talk someone out of their group's values, you might destroy their entire life. Talking someone out of their religion is a "win" until they get shunned and lose everything they have. Are you still in the right then? What does the "objective truth" matter if you're just ruining peoples lives? Change someone's mind on guns or abortion and you hurt them! It doesn't matter which side they start on or which side you convince them to. You're ripping and tearing at the very fabric of their social life. Some people are unable to change their minds, but some people can't change their minds due to circumstance. It's really important to understand this before convincing anyone of anything.

nuancebydefault 4y ago
Even if you persuaded them into changing their mind on a topic intertwined with their identity or the group they are part of, can it not be that it is for the better and, ultimately for their own benifit?
RobertoG 4y ago
Great comment. I suspect that we all are vulnerable to Stockholm syndrome and doing the calculation of what price we will pay for changing our mind. After all, surviving is more important than being right.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benkamin Franklin Liberty includes the ability to offer convincing arguments to anyone who may listen.
  - kyleyeats 4y ago
    "Freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness." - Viktor Frankl Liberty without responsibility is a big pile of hot garbage. If you exercise the liberty you're talking about, you also need to at the same time exercise the responsibility I'm talking about.

nuancebydefault 4y ago

> listening... will manipulate them... I also read in the article that you should listen in a genuine way. Would it be possible that this act could change your own mind? Would that fit your definition of being open-minded?

danhak 4y ago

On the contrary, the article concludes on this note: > But if I truly have the good of the world at heart, then I must not fall prey to the conceit of perfect knowledge, and must be willing to entertain new and better ways to serve my ultimate goal: creating a happier world.

andrewflnr 4y ago
That means a lot less as a postscript than as the starting point. Whereas the framing of your values as a "gift" doesn't absolutely imply they're correct, but does imply they're somehow a good thing. There's a phrase we use for saying the right words about an important idea but not actually incorporating it into your methods: "lip service".
- another_story 4y ago
  Do you hold any values that you don't think are a good thing? It seems as if the author is coming from the perspective that you hold these values rather close and are already willing to defend them. In those cases isn't it better to come off as offering something to a conversation as opposed to dictating what is correct? Also, in a sense, offering up something for consideration already carries with it a sense that you're willing to discuss its terms.
  - andrewflnr 4y ago
    > Do you hold any values that you don't think are a good thing? No, but I could be wrong, and I'm a dangerous fool if I don't take that into account. > offering up something for consideration already carries with it a sense that you're willing to discuss its terms. In some idealized world of intelligent good faith discussions, maybe. In practice, false, not even close. A good idea for yourself, but not safe to assume of anyone else's motives even if they say that's how they operate, much less if they call their ideas a "gift".
    - another_story 4y ago
      I think all the author is saying is to do it yourself, not that we should be naive and assume others are doing the same. You can always give people the benefit of the doubt first, and adjust.

xani_ 4y ago

> Here's a good trick I picked up for discussing contentious things - if you're ever tempted to dish out a sick burn, try to rephrase the point into a genuine question. Then the other person will have to walk through the logic of it, and if it turns out there is a real logic to their side of things, you don't get your ego bruised, cause you just asked a genuine question. And if it doesn't they can figure it out and have a way to fuck off without losing face too much

skyfaller 4y ago

This is a "trick" that Socrates was famous for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning Many of his contemporaries hated his guts and ultimately they condemned him to death. It may be a good way to keep an open mind, but it may also be a terrible way to make friends and influence people.

etherael 4y ago
I think it's because the political process is all about getting people into groups where they can thus cooperate with each other as an economic bloc, a perfect lie is the optimal unifying concept in this model; something that pulls everybody together into the same single political structure. If on the other hand all you care about is the truth, you're directly corrosive to the above. You're looking at all the edge cases where the lie breaks down, and worse yet you're spreading disintegration of the otherwise unified political bloc by infecting other agents with your same methods. It's a matter of perspective which side is "right", because those resultant atomised and fractured political blocs that can no longer bring themselves to accept the beautiful lie that otherwise would have successfully united them are now competitive rather than cooperative, and the game gradually slips closer to zero sum with the bloc most closely pursuing the optimal strategy in the light of the cold hard cynical truth winning out at the direct expense of all the other groups, and the resulting accelerating wealth inequality that implies, having real concrete negative effects on the lives of all those people in the suboptimal factions that frankly they may never have even had a chance to join letalone have been made aware of the existence of any alternatives because of the nature of their worldviews. Is it "right" to pursue truth even if it makes the quality of life of billions much worse? It's a frightening and enlightening thing to sit down with an ideologue and come to understand not just what they think, but how they got to think that way. The common thread I have found is that default worldviews are both extremely sticky and subject to almost no critical analysis by the people that hold them, and unifying the galaxy of irrational but widely held default worldviews that exist flatly requires extensive narrative manipulation and outright lying, and that lying and manipulation is what politics actually is. Imho this is why widespread censorship has gone from intolerable anathema to the sine qua non for the existence of the dominant shared mass hallucination about the state of the world in just a few short decades. Like it or not, politics has won out soundly over truth past a certain social scale. Disclaimer; acknowledging reality is not approving of it. Socrates was right and should have beeen feeding his prosecutors hemlock, not the other way around. Damn the consequences and embrace the truth, whatever the outcome has always been my view. I just also know that view is extremely unpopular today.

halffaday 4y ago

chiefalchemist 4y ago

You raise an interesting question: Does the right-leaning media publish the same type of articles? And if not, what type of "conflict resolution" content do they publish instead?

spangry 4y ago

> I find it strange that this article presumes that you have all the right answers and that there isn't the possibility that you are the one who needs their mind changed. It points out that listening is valuable, but not because there's a possibility that the person you're talking to is in the right, no, you should listen to other people because studies show that listening to other people will manipulate them into seeing things your way. Perhaps the article is being devious here. It's not easy for people to separate intentions and actions - sometimes an intention can form to rationalise a preceding action (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect). Even though your initial intention may be to manipulate by appearing to genuinely listen, you may end up just genuinely listening and rationalising that this was your intent all along. This line of reasoning could trick the most ardent zealots into accidentally genuinely listening to their enemies' point of view. Relatedly, I think another effective persuasive technique is 'seeding'. If you can engineer a 'non-defensive' conversation with your opponent in which you seed one or two critical thoughts in their mind, although they won't be instantaneously persuaded the seeds can germinate into full persuasion later on. However, this technique requires avoidance of confrontational behaviours that cause your opponent to activate their mental defenses.

ledauphin 4y ago

Do you think the author might have written it with that 'presumption' intentionally? I'd guess that the author is trying to, as gently as possible, suggest to people that there are better ways to go about thinking about those with whom you disagree, _regardless_ of who is right or wrong. Which is really a different point than "you should be less certain about your beliefs."

Vinnl 4y ago

To me it felt like the article lured you in pretending to be a guide on how to change other people's minds, but the arguments seem to involve that you can only do so by being open to having your own mind change. I mean, I scrolled back up to the title - "A Gentler, Better Way to Change Minds" - and note that it doesn't even mention other people's minds; it could refer to changing your own mind as well. Point two is about being OK with your point of view being rejected, and point three about considering the other person's point of view. And then the conclusion is: > But if I truly have the good of the world at heart, then I must not fall prey to the conceit of perfect knowledge, and must be willing to entertain new and better ways to serve my ultimate goal: creating a happier world. Launching a rhetorical grenade might give me a little satisfaction and earn me a few attaboys on social media from those who share my views, but generosity and openness have a bigger chance of making the world better in the long run.