4 ms·

I consider myself pretty far to the left on the political spectrum, but I also strive to be a fair-minded pragmatist, and I have to say the black-and-whiteness

I consider myself pretty far to the left on the political spectrum, but I also strive to be a fair-minded pragmatist, and I have to say the black-and-whiteness of these discussions do drive me crazy. Mob justice isn't great. While I don't think the problem of "cancel culture" is nearly as pervasive as some claim, mob justice is clearly not the best mechanism for fairness and I have seen concrete examples of people being canceled unfairly, I have also seen examples of people who seem to derive a sense of fulfillment from incessantly pestering employers or would-be employers of their targets. "Bean Dad" was a good example of someone who was unfairly harassed out of employment. Al Franken also comes to mind. HOWEVER, I think it's 100% wrong that the problem of mob or tribal justice is a phenomenon of the left. The aesthetic and mechanisms may be different, but consider the McCarthy era. Consider racial discrimination, sex discrimination, and religious discrimination, all of which are ongoing and rely on various forms of ostracization, in addition to having the power of the law and institutions behind them. The reason the left uses public call-outs as their go-to mechanism is that they historically, institutional power has been so egregiously biased against them that there wasn't much other recourse.

lapcat 4y ago
> Al Franken also comes to mind. Well... Al Franken is fine. He was rich and famous before he became a Senator, and he's still rich and famous now. Moreover, his successor was reelected, so the Senate seat hasn't changed parties. Franken was a liability. Imagine him campaigning for women's rights. It just wouldn't work. To be clear, though, it was Franken's own Democratic colleagues in the Senate who pressured him to resign. He didn't resign because Twitter told him to.
- hairofadog 4y ago
  I agree with you that Franken is fine (and I'll admit to not fully understanding what happened there; I should read up [1]). Bean Dad is fine too, for whatever it's worth, though unlike Franken, he had done nothing wrong. In any case, I don't think I articulated my thought very well there, which was not to say these people had been irrevocably damaged, but to point out a tendency on the left (where I am) to take swings at people, even, or especially, their own, sometimes performatively and without cause. This happens on the right to the same degree, it's just that the litmus tests are different (currently the only one being loyalty to the previous president). [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al...
gremlinsinc 4y ago
Sometimes though, they get it really right. Before the legal issues Alex Jones was very much being 'cancelled' or at least ostracized. He has made over 200 million though from his platform, and conspiracy talk show, and decided it was a good idea to pester and make fun of people who's kids died in a gruesome shooting. Seriously, there's an evil bar and he's just slightly above serial killers and hitler. Running a grieving parent who's 6 year old was murdered and claiming they're a hoax and not real. I can't imagine going any lower than that, and in a case like that he definitely should be cancelled. Bill Cosby is another good example, he should be a pariah. I feel sometimes maybe the back and forth online open 'battles' can become evidence in court for injustices, so maybe the answer would be an immutable Twitter where what you say can't be erased and to get an account you must be 'verified' so you better be damn sure you want to say what you want to say to the whole world. i'd be much more hesitant if words had permanency with screenshots they still kinda do, but at least then you can claim it was photoshopped, hell AI could probably easily make screenshots of tweets that never happened. Cancelling happens on the left too, Chris Matthews called Bernie a nazi, was afraid he'd hang him when he became president, and called his supporters brown shirts which is very derogatory because those were basically Nazi's and Bernie had relatives killed in the Holocaust. Of course turnabout is fair play, as Chris Matthews was cancelled shortly thereafter. Dr. Jason (can't remember last name) black guy on MSNBC called Bernie's female supports the "island of misfit black girls". He received a lot less airtime after that, again rightfully so. I still have a hard time seeing where canceling isn't anything more than just accountability. ADHD has me all of the place on this issue, but I guess my tLDR: Often mob justice is the only justice anybody will get so it is warranted, and it happens at all points on the political spectrum, I feel it's childish perhaps to think you as the center of your universe are getting unfairly dished on and can't take the heat, having autism/adhd I've said things before online and had some depression from backlash, often I just mispoke and sure it made me more cautious about what I say, sometimes but it made me more cautious. People SHOULD be cautious about what they say online because it lives on forever. Sometimes you need to get 'burned' before you can realize oops I see that was wrong. At this point 'cancel culture' though seems to be a childish cry of people who want everyone to think they're the 'victim', and I just don't see most of these people as real victims. Sorry, not sorry.
- 4y ago

lapcat 4y ago

> Al Franken also comes to mind. Well... Al Franken is fine. He was rich and famous before he became a Senator, and he's still rich and famous now. Moreover, his successor was reelected, so the Senate seat hasn't changed parties. Franken was a liability. Imagine him campaigning for women's rights. It just wouldn't work. To be clear, though, it was Franken's own Democratic colleagues in the Senate who pressured him to resign. He didn't resign because Twitter told him to.

hairofadog 4y ago
I agree with you that Franken is fine (and I'll admit to not fully understanding what happened there; I should read up [1]). Bean Dad is fine too, for whatever it's worth, though unlike Franken, he had done nothing wrong. In any case, I don't think I articulated my thought very well there, which was not to say these people had been irrevocably damaged, but to point out a tendency on the left (where I am) to take swings at people, even, or especially, their own, sometimes performatively and without cause. This happens on the right to the same degree, it's just that the litmus tests are different (currently the only one being loyalty to the previous president). [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al...

gremlinsinc 4y ago

Sometimes though, they get it really right. Before the legal issues Alex Jones was very much being 'cancelled' or at least ostracized. He has made over 200 million though from his platform, and conspiracy talk show, and decided it was a good idea to pester and make fun of people who's kids died in a gruesome shooting. Seriously, there's an evil bar and he's just slightly above serial killers and hitler. Running a grieving parent who's 6 year old was murdered and claiming they're a hoax and not real. I can't imagine going any lower than that, and in a case like that he definitely should be cancelled. Bill Cosby is another good example, he should be a pariah. I feel sometimes maybe the back and forth online open 'battles' can become evidence in court for injustices, so maybe the answer would be an immutable Twitter where what you say can't be erased and to get an account you must be 'verified' so you better be damn sure you want to say what you want to say to the whole world. i'd be much more hesitant if words had permanency with screenshots they still kinda do, but at least then you can claim it was photoshopped, hell AI could probably easily make screenshots of tweets that never happened. Cancelling happens on the left too, Chris Matthews called Bernie a nazi, was afraid he'd hang him when he became president, and called his supporters brown shirts which is very derogatory because those were basically Nazi's and Bernie had relatives killed in the Holocaust. Of course turnabout is fair play, as Chris Matthews was cancelled shortly thereafter. Dr. Jason (can't remember last name) black guy on MSNBC called Bernie's female supports the "island of misfit black girls". He received a lot less airtime after that, again rightfully so. I still have a hard time seeing where canceling isn't anything more than just accountability. ADHD has me all of the place on this issue, but I guess my tLDR: Often mob justice is the only justice anybody will get so it is warranted, and it happens at all points on the political spectrum, I feel it's childish perhaps to think you as the center of your universe are getting unfairly dished on and can't take the heat, having autism/adhd I've said things before online and had some depression from backlash, often I just mispoke and sure it made me more cautious about what I say, sometimes but it made me more cautious. People SHOULD be cautious about what they say online because it lives on forever. Sometimes you need to get 'burned' before you can realize oops I see that was wrong. At this point 'cancel culture' though seems to be a childish cry of people who want everyone to think they're the 'victim', and I just don't see most of these people as real victims. Sorry, not sorry.

4y ago