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I just don't understand this sudden appreciation for escalation from the same groups of people that have been screaming against that kind of action for decades.

I just don't understand this sudden appreciation for escalation from the same groups of people that have been screaming against that kind of action for decades. EDIT: I bet the vast majority of the people downvoting and pressing for conflict in this thread have never seen such atrocities up close. The primary goal always needs to be de-escalation and saving lives.

Analemma_ 4y ago
There is no "appreciation for escalation". What there is, is appreciation for the fact that giving in to nuclear blackmail supercharges proliferation and makes nuclear war much more likely, because now every state with expansionist designs realizes "Holy shit, if I have nukes I can take whatever I want as long as I threaten to go nuclear if I don't get it", and rushes to get nuclear weapons as fast as possible. By contrast, sending a hard No to irredentist states which threaten nuclear strikes if anyone opposes their expansion signals that it's not worth the effort to get nukes and that they won't help your expansionism.
- ganoushoreilly 4y ago
  If there was intent to use a nuke it would be used and no one can do anything about it. That door to pandoras box was opened and has been demonstrated horrifically already. If that fear and acknowledgement isn't enough then there is nothing you can say or do to stop that escalation. Where do you stand on gun control / gun rights? Do you think it's important to have the ability to stand up and defend against armed agressors?
chrisseaton 4y ago
What do you think would stop him invading another country again tomorrow if there was a compromise? If each time he invades he knows he’ll get some compromise that is a little win, why would he not do it again and again? Your solution extends the human suffering indefinitely. Not only the fighting - but because citizens of Russia are less free than others countries.
- kcplate 4y ago
  There may be nothing to stop him. But I don’t think that is a valid argument against attempting de-escalation for this conflict.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Why attempt it again when it failed every other time and always led to new violence and suffering?
    - kcplate 4y ago
      Because every other time it avoided worldwide apocalypse.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        How much of the world do you think we should let him subjugate? When he comes for your family and home are you handing them over without any fuss? Bizarre.
        kcplate 4y ago
        > How much of the world do you think we should let him subjugate? That phrase assumes that we have the power to stop him without creating a greater loss of life than the death he would create in the areas he wants to subjugate. It also assumes that if we do enter into a worldwide conflict to remove him and we succeed, that whatever and whoever is left will be less tyrannical, less expansionist and less likely to create suffering. And to answer your question…if he comes for my family and home, I will fight for them fiercely, because I will likely have not yet been nuked off the bloody planet by some “well intentioned” warmongering jackass from halfway across the globe who thinks he is doing the world a favor by killing it. For all of human history borders shift, leaders shift, some are tyrants, some are not…however 2022 by engaging in an apocalyptic war over Putin and Ukraine will not resolve the human nature and eliminate suffering.

Analemma_ 4y ago

There is no "appreciation for escalation". What there is, is appreciation for the fact that giving in to nuclear blackmail supercharges proliferation and makes nuclear war much more likely, because now every state with expansionist designs realizes "Holy shit, if I have nukes I can take whatever I want as long as I threaten to go nuclear if I don't get it", and rushes to get nuclear weapons as fast as possible. By contrast, sending a hard No to irredentist states which threaten nuclear strikes if anyone opposes their expansion signals that it's not worth the effort to get nukes and that they won't help your expansionism.

ganoushoreilly 4y ago
If there was intent to use a nuke it would be used and no one can do anything about it. That door to pandoras box was opened and has been demonstrated horrifically already. If that fear and acknowledgement isn't enough then there is nothing you can say or do to stop that escalation. Where do you stand on gun control / gun rights? Do you think it's important to have the ability to stand up and defend against armed agressors?

chrisseaton 4y ago

What do you think would stop him invading another country again tomorrow if there was a compromise? If each time he invades he knows he’ll get some compromise that is a little win, why would he not do it again and again? Your solution extends the human suffering indefinitely. Not only the fighting - but because citizens of Russia are less free than others countries.

kcplate 4y ago
There may be nothing to stop him. But I don’t think that is a valid argument against attempting de-escalation for this conflict.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Why attempt it again when it failed every other time and always led to new violence and suffering?
  - kcplate 4y ago
    Because every other time it avoided worldwide apocalypse.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      How much of the world do you think we should let him subjugate? When he comes for your family and home are you handing them over without any fuss? Bizarre.
      - kcplate 4y ago
        > How much of the world do you think we should let him subjugate? That phrase assumes that we have the power to stop him without creating a greater loss of life than the death he would create in the areas he wants to subjugate. It also assumes that if we do enter into a worldwide conflict to remove him and we succeed, that whatever and whoever is left will be less tyrannical, less expansionist and less likely to create suffering. And to answer your question…if he comes for my family and home, I will fight for them fiercely, because I will likely have not yet been nuked off the bloody planet by some “well intentioned” warmongering jackass from halfway across the globe who thinks he is doing the world a favor by killing it. For all of human history borders shift, leaders shift, some are tyrants, some are not…however 2022 by engaging in an apocalyptic war over Putin and Ukraine will not resolve the human nature and eliminate suffering.