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This bullshit shows up in every HN thread on autonomous vehicles. Really only on HN. It's wrong, uninformed, and won't seem to go away. The challenges self-dri
by Fricken 4y ago
This bullshit shows up in every HN thread on autonomous vehicles. Really only on HN. It's wrong, uninformed, and won't seem to go away.
The challenges self-driving cars have nothing to do with infrastructure and everything to do with the other moving objects on the road. It's not that the vehicles can't detect the other things on the road. It's that they can't anticipate reliably what they're going to do.
(However you may be correct that we need AGI or something close to it to do autonomous vehicles robustly)
- andrepd 4y agoTeslas, despite the ludicrous promises of "full self-driving in 6 months, just you wait", completely choke if there is so much as a traffic cone or a road-work barrier for it go around.
- Fricken 4y agoTesla doesn't come anywhere close to having the sensor suite or compute to be taken seriously as a developer of level 4 autonomy.
- onethought 4y agoWhat sensor suite is that?
- oliveshell 4y agoRadar, ultrasonic proximity sensors, and/or LIDAR, presumably. Tesla has famously removed all radar/ultrasonic sensors from their newer cars in favor of a purely camera-based system.
- onethought 4y agoBut they removed them well after they showed they could accurately predict distance with vision. LiDAR doesn’t make sense as a sensor to me because it only works in good weather. Its Like a car without windscreen wipers.
- onethought 4y agoAppreciate the downvote/disagreement. But here is Karpathy explaining how vision can be used to measure distance to objects accurately[0] Here is the fact that LiDAR doesn't work in the rain[1]: "... In heavy rain, for example, the light pulses emitted from the lidar system are partially reflected off of rain droplets which adds noise to the data, called 'echoes'." Which logically implies you need to revert to vision, as see [0] also for why Radar is unreliable. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bOwQdCJrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6bOwQdCJrc [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar
- sneak 4y agoHow do humans drive without these sensors?
- maleldil 4y agoWith superior reasoning abilities. Extra sensors generating more data make reasoning simpler.
- onethought 4y agoExcept that Radar and LiDAR send false negatives in poor weather/conditions. Making reasoning harder.
- panick21_ 4y agoExtra sensors also generate a lot of extra complexity in fusing all the sensors into a common consistent view of the world. And if your goal is just 'more data' then you might as well just add more cameras, that's also 'more data'. I guess what you wanted to say way 'diverse data'. As with everything else there are benefits and costs to those approaches.
- muststopmyths 4y agoUnless… the infrastructure change they propose is removing the “other things on the road”. Sounds brilliant. You could call that system a “rail” road as the cars would be on rails in a manner of speaking
- Fricken 4y agoVancouver's Skytrain has been fully autonomous since, I think, the 1980s.
- DebtDeflation 4y agoObject detection is an issue, but it doesn't only apply to "moving" objects. The current state of the art is having trouble differentiating between a "solid" stationary object like a tire or chunk of metal that must be navigated around, and something like an empty plastic bag that can be safely ignored. Regarding infrastructure, AVs also seem to have a lot of trouble with faded lane lines on roads.
- Fricken 4y agoIf you're relying only on cameras, then yes, that's an issue. Level 4 vehicles can locate themselves without the need for lines on the road. Everything has been carefully mapped out ahead of time.
- criley2 4y ago>Everything has been carefully mapped out ahead of time. That sounds sustainable and scalable to earth-size, for sure.
- thrwyoilarticle 4y agoEarth size? When was the last time you drove in Madagascar? Most driven miles are the same commute in the same city 10 times a week.
- Symbiote 4y agoI wonder if you know what some of the roads in Madagascar are like, or just picked a country. https://www.dangerousroads.org/africa/madagascar/3415-route-nationale-5.html https://www.dangerousroads.org/africa/madagascar/3415-route-... (A colleague is there now.)
- panick21_ 4y agoPeople in Madagascar would answer differently.
- _0w8t 4y agoI recently drove a rented Tesla 3. On a highway in Norway it failed to detect speed limit signs in like 25% of cases. And if the speed limit sign was a temporary one due to road repairs it failed with those like 50% of times. And this is with stationary objects designed to be seen and easily grasped by humans.
- hasmanean 4y agoSigns are nice but the simplest way to know the speed is to store it in a database and look it up from position. In fact roads should have barcoded position markers everywhere. That way you could navigate without gps and all road signs could become virtual. Just download a road marker update.
- YawningAngel 4y agoThat's not really how speed limits work though. People take their cues from road design and conditions, not what the speed limit actually is. Virtually changing speed limits is dangerous because it causes you to think you are altering the behaviour of traffic without actually doing so. https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?t=280 https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?t=280 goes into detail on this
- aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 4y agoWe could put GPS beacons on all pedestrians.
- chopin 4y agoThe sarcasm tags are missing.
- Veserv 4y agoTeslas do not read speed limit signs or basically any signs other than stop signs, including not reading “Do Not Enter” street signs. It is using the wrong speed limit because their maps do not list the correct speed limit.
- 4y ago
- silisili 4y agoThis reminds me of something the Rocket League devs said. Something to the effect that bots wouldn't be effective at the game because it's too challenging. This is -not- my line of work, so I have no idea if that's true. But if it is, I don't see how we could have perfectly safe self driving vehicles.
- Gordonjcp 4y agoThis is where I see the problem being with autonomous vehicles, too. They can only react to other vehicles, they can't predict them. Humans are good at predicting. You don't consciously know you've seen the guy a couple of cars in front checking his mirror and his shoulder but you're hanging back because you just know he's going to pull out any second. The guy that's wavering a bit in the middle lane is about to dash across to the far lane of the sliproad that's coming up, clipping the zebra stripes a bit, because he's concentrating on the sat nav not the road, but you just know - out of all the other drivers in your space at the moment - that red Ford is the one that's going to do something boneheaded. Autonomous Vehicles won't be able to do that, probably not ever.