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Well, the Arabic version of that same Wikipedia article provides the Hadeeth transmitter’s analysis of the Hadith regarding Al-‘Asmaa bint Marian, and the verdi

Well, the Arabic version of that same Wikipedia article provides the Hadeeth transmitter’s analysis of the Hadith regarding Al-‘Asmaa bint Marian, and the verdict that this hadeeth is fabricated (Mawdoo’). It simply isn’t true. Moreover, the language of the claimed poet - I’m an Arab - is far different from the language of the time, far from being poetic, and the statement claimed that Prophet Muhammad said has a very different tone from his usual tone (He said “Who’d save me from Al ‘Asmaa bint Marwan?” and the Prophet himself mentioned that there is no savior other than Allah. The prophet approach would be something like يريحني (v. make me relaxed) from so and so. It’s a very horrible and easy to spot fabrication, the fabricator almost didn’t put any effort in it and used the language of his time instead. You don’t need to mention a fabricated story to attack Islam’s take on free speech. Free speech is simply not a principle that was ever well-regarded in Islam. “Whomever believes in Allah and the last day should only say good or be quiet” and “Are people thrown into the depth of hellfire except by the sowing of their tongues” and “It is enough for one to be described as a liar is to talk about everything he heard”. The notion of “freedom” is a very western notion that - in its current form - very alien to the sort of freedom that Islam talks about: minimal freedom that is constrained by rules. Free speech certainly isn’t regarded as part of that minimal freedom. More like “constrained speech”, because of the inherent Islamic belief that free speech brings chaos. In times of Fitnah (tribulation, calamity) people are commanded by the Prophet not to speak a word: “Hold your tongue, stay at your home, and abandon the matters of public”; which is absolutely against free speech because people’s opinions are stirred most when there are events, and they’re commanded to be quiet and bottle it in. It is just that we, Arabs, are a radically different culture that values stability and tradition. Something of the sort of “People should mind their own business”. Free speech undermines both. It’s a significant cultural difference that the west has no intent to respect, because they regard it as oppressive. You don’t need to mention a fabricated story to highlight that.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago
- iniekaas 4y ago
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    >Nowadays, lineage isn’t something that matters much. they call it "caste" in indian subcontinent and unlike what the indian hindu ideology is around their caste system, everyone assumes that islamic lineage taking is same as hindu caste division which is not it.
    - candiodari 4y ago
      - anonair 4y ago
        And your source for Islam is Ayatollah? He is not even a sunni. The point is he directly/indirectly benefits from misrepresenting the Prophet
        candiodari 4y ago
        See the list of sources on the wikipedia page. Plenty of Sunni sources. And it's not like the prophet did this once ...
      - sudhirc 4y ago
        > Hinduism started with "a great war". Buddhism started with a war. This is an interesting take on Hinduism and Buddhism. I am assuming you are referring to Great Wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata. Everyone participating in those was were the followers of Sanatan Dharma which is known as Hinduism today. Both wars weren't fought of religious ground. Buddhism started with Siddhartha noticing dukkha (pain) of life and leaving home to find solution. What are your sources?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
inglor_cz 4y ago
"It is just that we, Arabs, are a radically different culture that values stability and tradition. Something of the sort of “People should mind their own business”. Free speech undermines both. It’s a significant cultural difference that the west has no intent to respect, because they regard it as oppressive." This is an interesting remark that gave me some new insight into Arabic culture. That said, free speech wasn't a value in much of the West either, much less in places like Taiwan that are now democratic. Most of Europe was pretty conservative in the 19th century and the revolutionaries who fought for liberal values were mostly educated city folk, a smallish class. The value of free speech is in the fact that it prevents the country from committing some serious mistakes, or at least reduces chances thereof. Authoritarian systems look awesome from the outside, while democracies with their free speech are obviously messy and chaotic. But in the long run, authoritarian systems tend to commit fatal mistakes like going into an all-out war that they lose (it is happening right in front of us in Ukraine), because no one dared defy the Emperor. The stability of yesteryear is now gone. With the Internet, any idea can reach any audience in milliseconds, and Arab societies, like those conservative European societies earlier, will have to live with the inherent chaos. IDK what is means for the future of Islam; Christianity in Europe has already collapsed or is (demographically) collapsing. Even in former strongholds like Poland, the majority of young people are no longer religious and this trend, once it sets in, has proven almost impossible to reverse. I noticed the same trend among youngsters in Turkey, though Turkey isn't an Arab country; but it is an important trendsetter in the Islamic world.
- miohtama 4y ago
  Free speech is necessity for democracy. Democracy is necessity for the movement of enlightenment and justice. Enlightenment and science based governance led to the technology revolution, medical understanding and productivity boost. Authorian societies will never be as productive productive and never be good source of innovation. If people wish to live according to tradition, conservatism and authorian rule it is ok, but it is unlikely they will ever catch Western democracies in quality of life.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    We don't just have democracy vs. authoritarianism in a vaccuum, we have specific countries adopting specific ideologies with specific material starting conditions. The UK used to be a massive colonial power that grabbed the world like it were an ice-cream cone, now they can barely respond to domestic crises. Yet they have become less authoritarian and conservative during the timeframe of their downfall. Currently, China has significant problems that could kill their future but they are currently demonstrating great innovation and scientific output. They have their own space station, are developing their own supply chains, have massive and ambitious infrastructure, TikTok is beating the Americans at their own game, and so on. Meanwhile, they have not seen a decrease in authoritarianism. In fact, the current trend seems to illustrate that as economic growth stalls in the West, the population is turning to more authoritarian leaders. Perhaps our freedom was just a side-effect of fair weather, and we'll revert back once material conditions decrease?
rayiner 4y ago
Tolerance for free speech that’s disruptive to social harmony and order is a distinctively western thing. East Asians aren’t big fans either. Which is fine. We don’t all need to be the same.
- gurumeditations 4y ago
  That’s ridiculous. I hope you experience the other side of the coin, where you are contrary to social harmony, perhaps because of your race, romance, gender, class, etc. Just because evil is widespread doesn’t normalize it and make it ok. There are even lots of protests in China, but the dictatorships have always limited their spread, more so today.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    As US is becoming less Europeanized, less Anglo, less liberal, through the large scale population replacement, you yourself will get to experience what it’s like to live in a society that values the liberal values much less than the people who founded and built this country.
    - eternalban 4y ago
      Liberal values developed over time in course of which many tears were shed and much blood was spilled. In Europe and also here. [In other words, not 'innate' to the Europeans.] I think your prognosis (which comes across as fear actually) may come to pass, but it will not be because US population is no longer primarily of European stock (some word!) The primary driver has always been and remains culture. And culture in our age is an industry. And industry is subject to law & market. Liberal values are eroded because of the cultural content that undermine its validity and appeal. Non-Europeans will respond, I assure you, just as readily to formative cultural forces that engender an appreciation for liberal values, as do their "Anglo" fellow citizens. Likewise, both Anglos and the rest of us will also respond accordingly to cultural forces that are otherwise.
  - dang 4y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. Edit: it looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of what they're battling for, so please stop doing that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
slim 4y ago
It is just that we, Arabs, are a radically different culture that values stability and tradition. your perspective is interesting, but you should not speak for all arabs. at most you can speak for conservative arabs
dang 4y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into religious flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago

iniekaas 4y ago
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  >Nowadays, lineage isn’t something that matters much. they call it "caste" in indian subcontinent and unlike what the indian hindu ideology is around their caste system, everyone assumes that islamic lineage taking is same as hindu caste division which is not it.
  - candiodari 4y ago
    - anonair 4y ago
      And your source for Islam is Ayatollah? He is not even a sunni. The point is he directly/indirectly benefits from misrepresenting the Prophet
      - candiodari 4y ago
        See the list of sources on the wikipedia page. Plenty of Sunni sources. And it's not like the prophet did this once ...
    - sudhirc 4y ago
      > Hinduism started with "a great war". Buddhism started with a war. This is an interesting take on Hinduism and Buddhism. I am assuming you are referring to Great Wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata. Everyone participating in those was were the followers of Sanatan Dharma which is known as Hinduism today. Both wars weren't fought of religious ground. Buddhism started with Siddhartha noticing dukkha (pain) of life and leaving home to find solution. What are your sources?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

inglor_cz 4y ago

"It is just that we, Arabs, are a radically different culture that values stability and tradition. Something of the sort of “People should mind their own business”. Free speech undermines both. It’s a significant cultural difference that the west has no intent to respect, because they regard it as oppressive." This is an interesting remark that gave me some new insight into Arabic culture. That said, free speech wasn't a value in much of the West either, much less in places like Taiwan that are now democratic. Most of Europe was pretty conservative in the 19th century and the revolutionaries who fought for liberal values were mostly educated city folk, a smallish class. The value of free speech is in the fact that it prevents the country from committing some serious mistakes, or at least reduces chances thereof. Authoritarian systems look awesome from the outside, while democracies with their free speech are obviously messy and chaotic. But in the long run, authoritarian systems tend to commit fatal mistakes like going into an all-out war that they lose (it is happening right in front of us in Ukraine), because no one dared defy the Emperor. The stability of yesteryear is now gone. With the Internet, any idea can reach any audience in milliseconds, and Arab societies, like those conservative European societies earlier, will have to live with the inherent chaos. IDK what is means for the future of Islam; Christianity in Europe has already collapsed or is (demographically) collapsing. Even in former strongholds like Poland, the majority of young people are no longer religious and this trend, once it sets in, has proven almost impossible to reverse. I noticed the same trend among youngsters in Turkey, though Turkey isn't an Arab country; but it is an important trendsetter in the Islamic world.

miohtama 4y ago
Free speech is necessity for democracy. Democracy is necessity for the movement of enlightenment and justice. Enlightenment and science based governance led to the technology revolution, medical understanding and productivity boost. Authorian societies will never be as productive productive and never be good source of innovation. If people wish to live according to tradition, conservatism and authorian rule it is ok, but it is unlikely they will ever catch Western democracies in quality of life.
- Bakary 4y ago
  We don't just have democracy vs. authoritarianism in a vaccuum, we have specific countries adopting specific ideologies with specific material starting conditions. The UK used to be a massive colonial power that grabbed the world like it were an ice-cream cone, now they can barely respond to domestic crises. Yet they have become less authoritarian and conservative during the timeframe of their downfall. Currently, China has significant problems that could kill their future but they are currently demonstrating great innovation and scientific output. They have their own space station, are developing their own supply chains, have massive and ambitious infrastructure, TikTok is beating the Americans at their own game, and so on. Meanwhile, they have not seen a decrease in authoritarianism. In fact, the current trend seems to illustrate that as economic growth stalls in the West, the population is turning to more authoritarian leaders. Perhaps our freedom was just a side-effect of fair weather, and we'll revert back once material conditions decrease?

rayiner 4y ago

Tolerance for free speech that’s disruptive to social harmony and order is a distinctively western thing. East Asians aren’t big fans either. Which is fine. We don’t all need to be the same.

gurumeditations 4y ago
That’s ridiculous. I hope you experience the other side of the coin, where you are contrary to social harmony, perhaps because of your race, romance, gender, class, etc. Just because evil is widespread doesn’t normalize it and make it ok. There are even lots of protests in China, but the dictatorships have always limited their spread, more so today.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  As US is becoming less Europeanized, less Anglo, less liberal, through the large scale population replacement, you yourself will get to experience what it’s like to live in a society that values the liberal values much less than the people who founded and built this country.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Liberal values developed over time in course of which many tears were shed and much blood was spilled. In Europe and also here. [In other words, not 'innate' to the Europeans.] I think your prognosis (which comes across as fear actually) may come to pass, but it will not be because US population is no longer primarily of European stock (some word!) The primary driver has always been and remains culture. And culture in our age is an industry. And industry is subject to law & market. Liberal values are eroded because of the cultural content that undermine its validity and appeal. Non-Europeans will respond, I assure you, just as readily to formative cultural forces that engender an appreciation for liberal values, as do their "Anglo" fellow citizens. Likewise, both Anglos and the rest of us will also respond accordingly to cultural forces that are otherwise.
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. Edit: it looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of what they're battling for, so please stop doing that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

slim 4y ago

It is just that we, Arabs, are a radically different culture that values stability and tradition. your perspective is interesting, but you should not speak for all arabs. at most you can speak for conservative arabs

dang 4y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into religious flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.