4 ms·

I mean, you're going to be programming for the rest of your life, right? I put a bunch of time into customizing vim... god, I think it was 15 years ago? Wheneve

by saurik 4y ago

I mean, you're going to be programming for the rest of your life, right? I put a bunch of time into customizing vim... god, I think it was 15 years ago? Whenever this comes up, people make it sound like you are somehow going to be doing that every single day for the rest of your life or something... and then, awkwardly, I tend to see them screwing around constantly with some new IDE-of-the-week that crashes constantly and slows them down at every turn gloating about how they "saved time" by not spending a small amount of time forever ago to figure out what the hell they actually wanted :/.

aussiesnack 4y ago
> I tend to see them screwing around constantly with some new IDE-of-the-week that crashes constantly and slows them down at every turn gloating about how they "saved time" by not spending a small amount of time forever ago to figure out what the hell they actually wanted This is just as much a caricature as the one you're objecting to. People do good work using all of the available tools. Some use more than one! There are people who like both emacs and IntelliJ! We really don't have to tribalize over every little choice people make.
- saurik 4y ago
  I'm totally cool if you want to use IntelliJ. I'm somewhat less cool if you are telling me how awesome IntelliJ is this year after trying to get me to use Eclipse on your last project but are now looking at VSCode as an alternative because you are sick of switching between this stack and Xcode and PyCharm after you stopped just trying to use Sublime for everything... and I certainly lose all sympathy when these same people actively defend this insanity by saying they don't think it makes sense to "waste time" "over-engineering" their text editor setup. Like, if you want to tell me "I use nothing but notepad, and I'm a god at it" I'm going to be "holy hell yeah, I want to feast my eyes upon this marvel"... but, first off, I'm betting at that point you are going to have gotten really good at using notepad, along with all of the little warts of how it interacts with Explorer... and second off, the people who are coming out always to bash on the people who bother to learn and optimize their tools to prepare for a lifetime of software development generally aren't people who simply chose a different tool.
BossingAround 4y ago
And then there's the majority of devs, like me, who did not spend months forcing themselves to actually make vim/emacs into an IDE and, at the same time, who suffer from no negative effects with one of those "IDE-of-the-week" (JFYI, that's not a thing). Intellij, Pycharm, and VSCode are all stable and fast. I don't think I've had neither of those crash on me in the past three years. You're laying out a false dichotomy.
- saurik 4y ago
  I'm not laying out a false dichotomy, I'm laying down two stacked arguments, and you are welcome to disagree or agree with each of them separately (and it isn't even clear to me that you disagree with the first one--about how that supposedly-large cost is amortized over a lifetime of development--as you seem to have been so distracted by the second). (And yes, IDE-of-the-week is definitely a thing. The shear number of different one-off text editors and IDEs for various language stacks I've seen people try to get me to use over the past 25 years is staggering.)
mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
I agree with you, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to try switching away from VSCode. It has been pretty good, but sometimes it's quite slow and does who-knows-what in the background, and then I check my CPU and memory usage and yep, it's eating 32Gi of ram. For what? Editing text? Compiling unncessary stuff when I don't want to compile? Then I restart it, like the good old Windows 95 days, and it's all good again. Probably something with the LSPs, but who knows. The point is, it's a lot of magic in those plugins, and I don't like magic because at some point the extra cost of debugging the magic is not worth it. I'd rather have a system that properly surfaces the complexity even if that means it takes longer to learn.
cercatrova 4y ago
There's churn in the Vim world too. Plugins and plugin managers change. For example, with Neovim, Packer and Mason are apparently what's good to use now, and Mason literally came out 3 months ago. I guess if you don't use many plugins (and aren't trying to make Vim a full fledged IDE) then it's fine, but if you are, there's a lot of churn to go through.
- scajanus 4y ago
  What I've found over the last 2 jobs/3 laptops is that I'm quite comfortable starting working and being productive with vi, and then over time I start setting 'nocompatible' when I need some feature from Vim, and then some weeks in add a vimrc/init.vim.
- tarboreus 4y ago
  There's approximately zero churn in Emacs. Moved up four major versions a few years ago and I think I had to regigger one line in my config, out of a config of over 2000 lines.

by saurik 4y ago

aussiesnack 4y ago

> I tend to see them screwing around constantly with some new IDE-of-the-week that crashes constantly and slows them down at every turn gloating about how they "saved time" by not spending a small amount of time forever ago to figure out what the hell they actually wanted This is just as much a caricature as the one you're objecting to. People do good work using all of the available tools. Some use more than one! There are people who like both emacs and IntelliJ! We really don't have to tribalize over every little choice people make.

saurik 4y ago
I'm totally cool if you want to use IntelliJ. I'm somewhat less cool if you are telling me how awesome IntelliJ is this year after trying to get me to use Eclipse on your last project but are now looking at VSCode as an alternative because you are sick of switching between this stack and Xcode and PyCharm after you stopped just trying to use Sublime for everything... and I certainly lose all sympathy when these same people actively defend this insanity by saying they don't think it makes sense to "waste time" "over-engineering" their text editor setup. Like, if you want to tell me "I use nothing but notepad, and I'm a god at it" I'm going to be "holy hell yeah, I want to feast my eyes upon this marvel"... but, first off, I'm betting at that point you are going to have gotten really good at using notepad, along with all of the little warts of how it interacts with Explorer... and second off, the people who are coming out always to bash on the people who bother to learn and optimize their tools to prepare for a lifetime of software development generally aren't people who simply chose a different tool.

BossingAround 4y ago

And then there's the majority of devs, like me, who did not spend months forcing themselves to actually make vim/emacs into an IDE and, at the same time, who suffer from no negative effects with one of those "IDE-of-the-week" (JFYI, that's not a thing). Intellij, Pycharm, and VSCode are all stable and fast. I don't think I've had neither of those crash on me in the past three years. You're laying out a false dichotomy.

saurik 4y ago
I'm not laying out a false dichotomy, I'm laying down two stacked arguments, and you are welcome to disagree or agree with each of them separately (and it isn't even clear to me that you disagree with the first one--about how that supposedly-large cost is amortized over a lifetime of development--as you seem to have been so distracted by the second). (And yes, IDE-of-the-week is definitely a thing. The shear number of different one-off text editors and IDEs for various language stacks I've seen people try to get me to use over the past 25 years is staggering.)

mudrockbestgirl 4y ago

I agree with you, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to try switching away from VSCode. It has been pretty good, but sometimes it's quite slow and does who-knows-what in the background, and then I check my CPU and memory usage and yep, it's eating 32Gi of ram. For what? Editing text? Compiling unncessary stuff when I don't want to compile? Then I restart it, like the good old Windows 95 days, and it's all good again. Probably something with the LSPs, but who knows. The point is, it's a lot of magic in those plugins, and I don't like magic because at some point the extra cost of debugging the magic is not worth it. I'd rather have a system that properly surfaces the complexity even if that means it takes longer to learn.

cercatrova 4y ago

There's churn in the Vim world too. Plugins and plugin managers change. For example, with Neovim, Packer and Mason are apparently what's good to use now, and Mason literally came out 3 months ago. I guess if you don't use many plugins (and aren't trying to make Vim a full fledged IDE) then it's fine, but if you are, there's a lot of churn to go through.

scajanus 4y ago
What I've found over the last 2 jobs/3 laptops is that I'm quite comfortable starting working and being productive with vi, and then over time I start setting 'nocompatible' when I need some feature from Vim, and then some weeks in add a vimrc/init.vim.
tarboreus 4y ago
There's approximately zero churn in Emacs. Moved up four major versions a few years ago and I think I had to regigger one line in my config, out of a config of over 2000 lines.