60 ms·

- Sir, you have to install this application, it's available on both iOS and the Google Play Store. - Do you have a Debian package? - I beg your pardon? - My

- Sir, you have to install this application, it's available on both iOS and the Google Play Store. - Do you have a Debian package? - I beg your pardon? - My Pinephone runs a modified version of Debian, the Universal Operating System. - ... What is that? - Oh fine. I'll settle for a Flatpack then. - I'm not sure I follow. -Does Qatar's Law require me to have an Android phone xor an iPhone? - No ... ? - Well your Law specification is incomplete and buggy. you get arrested for obstruction of justice

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
It is certainly unsettling how laws will blindly introduce a dependency on Google or Apple
- BHSPitMonkey 4y ago
  This is the aspect of Qatari law that stands out to you as unsettling?
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    I didn't realize subthreads weren't allowed to isolate subcontexts and discuss them. Are the other 50+ comments not enough to satisfy you?
  - hulitu 4y ago
    Qatar is our friend. Qatar is a democracy.
    - aaaaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
      N…not quite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Qatar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Qatar
      - poorlyknit 4y ago
        But they said they're friendly :)
    - kergonath 4y ago
      They certainly have a lot of money. Aren’t dollars basically people these days? Not to mention, oil.
p-e-w 4y ago
The great news is that just like you're not forced to buy an Android or iOS device, you're not forced to travel to Qatar. "Vote with your feet" applies to jurisdictions just like it applies to technologies. Of course, like with technologies, making such a choice has the potential to limit you in other ways.
- tenpies 4y ago
  Do not worry, the WEF and UN will be diligently taking notes of this field test and by the time it's rolled out in your country this will be resolved. I cannot wait to have a social credit score! It is a wonderful idea and I am only disappointed that our wise un-elected WEF and UN leaders are being so shy in rolling it out.
  - EiZei 4y ago
    Can we go back to FEMA death camps? This is just tiresome at this point.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      Tiresome? You don't think the WEF goal of "I Own Nothing, Have No Privacy And Life Has Never Been Better"[0] needs more awareness? [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/s...
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    No kidding. If we miraculously pull out of this nose dive before climate change erases us all we’re immediately going to be tossed into a world where AI makes us basically zoo animals for the ultra wealthy.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      > a world where AI makes us basically zoo animals for the ultra wealthy. ... for about 3 years, before one of the ultra wealthy elites presses the wrong button and the AI ends up putting them in the zoo (or paperclip raw materials hopper) too.
challenger-derp 4y ago
If they really really want to track people: - Sir, you have to install this application, it's available on both iOS and the Google Play Store. - Do you have a Debian package? - Give me a moment to check our database of alternative OSes.. Why yes, yes, we do have this as a Debian package. - ... Well... is the app truly compulsory? - Yes Sir, indeed it is I'm afraid. Security, safety and all that. - ...
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Even if the government went to the trouble of creating the Debian package, they wouldn't allow it to run on an OS that doesn't support a particularly restrictive "Secure Boot" setup, which would provide the mobile network with a remote attestation that you are running only "certified" packages and system services (including a minimal set of mandatory ones). Naturally, this certification process would ban apps which could spoof the UI of any official apps, but the ban would have to go further and include any apps which users have built from source themselves. End-to-end encrypted messaging apps (without backdoors) would similarly be banned. At that point, the fact that you have the source code for all of the software running on your surveillance device isn't much comfort. What good is a phone when you are unable to speak?
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    Are you implying that Debian does not support Secure Boot? Because it does.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      I did worry that my comment might incorrectly imply that, so I deliberately reworded it to say a particularly restrictive "Secure Boot" setup, but I guess that's still ambiguous. You're right, Debian "supports" such a set of restrictions, in the sense that a manufacturer could build devices that would comply with these hypothetical laws while only using vanilla Debian packages, but my point was that such a device wouldn't really feel like Debian, since the moment you installed an unapproved application (or removed a mandatory application) half the functionality would stop working.
xiwenc 4y ago
Last summer I had to travel to South Korea for business, I was required to install a government app due to covid. Obviously this app was only for android and iOS. I had an iphone so i didnt have issues. But if i had a pinephone, i probably would had to board the next plane out of the country. Crazy how our lives are becoming so dependent on private company techs.
- zaik 4y ago
  Same thing for Japan. For Android it's also only available on the Play Store which requires you to have a Google account.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tromp 4y ago
As the article points out, you do have the option of traveling without a smartphone...
kergonath 4y ago
That’s cute, except that of course in the real world you get some nice quality time with border control/the police/secret services well before that if you try playing these games. Or: try arguing about the fourth amendment, human rights and the constitution when a uniformed thug wants to seize your phone when you fly into the US. It does not sound that clever in the real world.
hierandthere 4y ago
No plan to travel to Qatar, but I don't own a mobile phone anyway.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

It is certainly unsettling how laws will blindly introduce a dependency on Google or Apple

BHSPitMonkey 4y ago
This is the aspect of Qatari law that stands out to you as unsettling?
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  I didn't realize subthreads weren't allowed to isolate subcontexts and discuss them. Are the other 50+ comments not enough to satisfy you?
- hulitu 4y ago
  Qatar is our friend. Qatar is a democracy.
  - aaaaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
    N…not quite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Qatar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Qatar
    - poorlyknit 4y ago
      But they said they're friendly :)
  - kergonath 4y ago
    They certainly have a lot of money. Aren’t dollars basically people these days? Not to mention, oil.

p-e-w 4y ago

The great news is that just like you're not forced to buy an Android or iOS device, you're not forced to travel to Qatar. "Vote with your feet" applies to jurisdictions just like it applies to technologies. Of course, like with technologies, making such a choice has the potential to limit you in other ways.

tenpies 4y ago
Do not worry, the WEF and UN will be diligently taking notes of this field test and by the time it's rolled out in your country this will be resolved. I cannot wait to have a social credit score! It is a wonderful idea and I am only disappointed that our wise un-elected WEF and UN leaders are being so shy in rolling it out.
- EiZei 4y ago
  Can we go back to FEMA death camps? This is just tiresome at this point.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Tiresome? You don't think the WEF goal of "I Own Nothing, Have No Privacy And Life Has Never Been Better"[0] needs more awareness? [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/s...
- raydiatian 4y ago
  No kidding. If we miraculously pull out of this nose dive before climate change erases us all we’re immediately going to be tossed into a world where AI makes us basically zoo animals for the ultra wealthy.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > a world where AI makes us basically zoo animals for the ultra wealthy. ... for about 3 years, before one of the ultra wealthy elites presses the wrong button and the AI ends up putting them in the zoo (or paperclip raw materials hopper) too.

challenger-derp 4y ago

If they really really want to track people: - Sir, you have to install this application, it's available on both iOS and the Google Play Store. - Do you have a Debian package? - Give me a moment to check our database of alternative OSes.. Why yes, yes, we do have this as a Debian package. - ... Well... is the app truly compulsory? - Yes Sir, indeed it is I'm afraid. Security, safety and all that. - ...

dane-pgp 4y ago
Even if the government went to the trouble of creating the Debian package, they wouldn't allow it to run on an OS that doesn't support a particularly restrictive "Secure Boot" setup, which would provide the mobile network with a remote attestation that you are running only "certified" packages and system services (including a minimal set of mandatory ones). Naturally, this certification process would ban apps which could spoof the UI of any official apps, but the ban would have to go further and include any apps which users have built from source themselves. End-to-end encrypted messaging apps (without backdoors) would similarly be banned. At that point, the fact that you have the source code for all of the software running on your surveillance device isn't much comfort. What good is a phone when you are unable to speak?
- goodpoint 4y ago
  Are you implying that Debian does not support Secure Boot? Because it does.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    I did worry that my comment might incorrectly imply that, so I deliberately reworded it to say a particularly restrictive "Secure Boot" setup, but I guess that's still ambiguous. You're right, Debian "supports" such a set of restrictions, in the sense that a manufacturer could build devices that would comply with these hypothetical laws while only using vanilla Debian packages, but my point was that such a device wouldn't really feel like Debian, since the moment you installed an unapproved application (or removed a mandatory application) half the functionality would stop working.

xiwenc 4y ago

Last summer I had to travel to South Korea for business, I was required to install a government app due to covid. Obviously this app was only for android and iOS. I had an iphone so i didnt have issues. But if i had a pinephone, i probably would had to board the next plane out of the country. Crazy how our lives are becoming so dependent on private company techs.

zaik 4y ago
Same thing for Japan. For Android it's also only available on the Play Store which requires you to have a Google account.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tromp 4y ago

As the article points out, you do have the option of traveling without a smartphone...

kergonath 4y ago

That’s cute, except that of course in the real world you get some nice quality time with border control/the police/secret services well before that if you try playing these games. Or: try arguing about the fourth amendment, human rights and the constitution when a uniformed thug wants to seize your phone when you fly into the US. It does not sound that clever in the real world.

hierandthere 4y ago

No plan to travel to Qatar, but I don't own a mobile phone anyway.